| Author | Message | ||
     Wendy Stromberg |
The problem with competing with a five section marathon in the UK when all the international competitions are three sections, is that if they are used for qualification purposes, the best horses may not be getting picked for the teams. These are those that struggle with fast section times. From the comments placed previously there definately does seem to be some horses that rise to the challenge and some that fade away. This is not always just a pure fitness issue. It should also be considered that less tired horses make for more spectacular driving in the obstacles from a spectators point of view. This has been one of the reasons behind the ridden horse trials rule changes with the steeplechase section. Personally, I find the fitness training required for a five section marathon is impossible to achieve when working full time without grooms at home. I have competed in only a handful of five section marathons and enjoyed them but would always choose the shorter ones now. Nationals have always been the competitions to aspire to but I think that there could be other things that can make them more challenging than club competitions than a section that is hidden away from the spectators. | ||
| Pat Cooper |
Thank you David for your support and opinions on this point. We obviously grew up with the old schooland relish the fact that our ORDINARY horses can compete with the dressage animals. At the end of the day it should remain the whole senario - dressage, walks, speed, and stamina. Reducing these will bring the sport back to club level so why pay the extra to go to Nationals. | ||
| Martyn Willis |
Firstly can I nail my position firmly to the post? I fully support the move to 3 section marathons. That said the decision by the ORGANISERS to revert THEIR events to 3 stage only affected 3 events this year; Sandringham, Lowther and Castle Kennedy and they were apparently running 3/5 section events which I take as meaning only some of the classes were doing 5 sections others doing 3. There may be other reasons for this change of format. Could it be the computerised scoring system no longer supports 5 sections? Other than just trying to make events suitable for getting Drivers/Horses qualified for International competition? I was involved in organising a 5 stage marathon event last year and we struggled to get the entries. (The event was cancelled at the last minute due to FMD.) From an organisers view point 5 sections needs a minimum of a further 5 Stewards and a second Vet with Judge, (if I read article 948.2.1 and Annex12 of the rule book right). Section Stewards are probably the hardest to find, as most want to steward an obstacle. I understand that people see it as "Dumming down" the marathon but the MAXIMUM distances between a 3 & 5 section is just 2Km. From a spectators point of view what happens out on the marathon is immaterial they come to see horses moving at more than a walk in the obstacles and there is more work needed to make them more exciting, and flowing. Saying that we all enjoy a good Section A drive out to warm our horses up for section E. If there are animal welfare issues out on the Marathon why do we penalise some one harder for finishing a section late (0.2) than earlier (0.1)? Is it right to have a 10 minute halt with the resultant build up of lactic acid in the muscles? Going back to my original statement I'd like to back this up by putting forward the following analogy; The English Football Association says to FIFA (The International body) we are going to play 4 ends of 20 minutes long rather than 2 X 45 min half's. Then they apply to play in the World Cup under the International rules. What do you think FIFA would say? How can you? You don't play the INTERNATIONAL game? We should in my opinion adopt the FEI rule book in full with the only amendments being for the specific classes, dressage test and variations in cone width/timings. I know most competitors say they have no International ambitions but I think this is actually a reality check by themselves in that they know they are unable to compete with the "Professionals" due to time and facilities and yes there are quite a few professional drivers. Our Top drivers MUST be given our full support not only financially but with how our home events are run so that they are able to qualify. This year see's selection events for Single Horses, Horse Pair and Horse Teams. We need International grade events to get them qualified. We all want them go and do to well. With reference to some other comments in this thread. The BHDTA are the custodians of our sport and Authorised and Recognised by the BEF as the ruling body for HDT in the UK. I also find it annoying that people feel they have a right to criticise the management of our sport when not actually joining the Association and putting their money in. | ||
| Helen Hunter |
For BHDTA on my last post: read Event Organisers. My mistake. | ||
| Helen Hunter |
I'm making the step from Intermediate to Open Horse class this year. Frankly, while I appreciate eveyone's opinion regarding the re instation of 5 section marathons, I for one am grateful to the BHDTA for their decision. I work full time and would struggle to get my horse fit enough for the fast trot sections, therefore excluding me from national competition this year as I would not expect my horse to do something when not physically fit enough. Extending the walk section times and increased halt times welcomed whether 3 or 5 section - welfare of the horse is paramount. | ||
| Steph Richards |
Practical issues? It seems to me there is are some basic issues,number of stewards,additional land access, and time, Ashfields at the weekend saw a total of 80 competitors all classes-abilities, take part in a well run event, the organisation was good with the timing of the start of sections reflecting the differing classes and speeds etc, while I agree with Georgina there may be a demand for a five section return, please spare a thought for the organisers, and stewards, after the problems of weather and foot and mouth last year surely it is just nice to see the spread and options around events, which give all competitors greater choice and chance to take part. | ||
| Jane Wilson |
Mr. Gilbert, you make a valid point - I'm not currently a member of the BHDTA and if I meet with that kind of attitude, why would I want to be? I have no wish to "influence our sport", I merely wished to enter what I thought was an open debate for drivers and point out quite simply that if you don't wish to do a five section marathon, you don't have to - legislation should not force it on all and I'm puzzled as to what you thought was controversial about that. I thought the right to express an opinion was allowed in the forum but thank you for being willing to take up the post of "forum police" and let me know the error of my ways. Incidentally, you will not find my current name in a database of past members - I married recently! | ||
| Georgina Frith |
Having just returned from Ashfields i am more convinced than ever that trying to hang on to the 'national circuit' in its present form is a regretable mistake. Given that there are so few competitors with international ambitions surely four events a year run to FEI rules and international standards should be enough. These could be closely monitored and regulated by the BHDTA and used as selection trials to ensure that our national representatives are well prepared for the World stage. The rest of the events could then have the flexibility to offer whatever classes and rules and sections they want to attract their entries. From the posts on here it seems there could be a market for a class competing over a 5 section marathon on the Saturday followed by cones on the Sunday for those who can't take the time off for a three day event and enjoy the view. They might even pay a premium for not having to go down the cente line and still get a rosette at the end of the weekend! | ||
| David Stafford |
I entirely agree with all the previous comments made regarding the apparent dilution of the marathon by cutting down to 3 sections only. It would appear that the days when penalties could be 'clawed back' particularly via the walks and fast section are gone. Also the chances of climbing a few places after the marathon could also be gone. Whilst I appreciate that the new rule may make it easier for organisers, it would appear that in these times of financial constraint competitors seem to be getting less for their money. | ||
| Pat Cooper |
Dear All, I have very strong views on reducing any national to 3 sections. The whole point about trials driving is obedience, stamina followed very closely about soundness. Dressage = obedience, outrun = timing, speed and stamina,last section i.e. cones = soundness after the previous stages. This is the WHOLE senario of eventing. WHY do we have to put emphasis on one secton only i.e. DRESSAGE. WE NEED TO HAVE HORSES THAT CAN PROVIDE THE PREVIOUS 3 sections. Clubs can provide 3 section marathons to filter competitors into the system so why should the national competitions revert back to club level therefore producing no further advancement. Also there is a costing in here somewhere ------ see last years comment from me. I am basically appalled that national events should even think of reducing their events to 3 stage. If there is a horse welfare factor here, I have moaned for long enough - give us more time at the halt - it isnt rocket science - just common sense - listen to the competitors - after all it is us that pay the entry and in some cases draw the crowds... no one , even us want to see tired horses going through obstacles. Replies please!!! | ||
| Alan Hodges |
Mr Gilbert, since when does the sport of carriage driving belong to the BHDTA? From an outsider, non member point of view you do seem to have made a bit of a dogs breakfast of it so far. Perhaps listening to the forum would give you an insight into the groundswell of opinion. | ||
| Ian Gilbert |
The Competitions Committee of the BHDTA have been monitoring National Events, including the number of events deciding to run 3 section marathons. We decided to ask council at the meeting on the 19th March for permission to circulate a questionaire to ascertain our members views. In order to save on postage we decided to include this with the next mailing, which happens to be the Annual Accounts for the AGM. BHDTA are keen to hear your views and on our sport should progress ,so please take the time to respond. One thing that amazes me about this forum, is the number of people who try to influence our sport and yet they are not members of BHDTA, and neither do they appear on our data base of past members. I do make a point of checking the members list when I see an unknown name make controversial remarks. | ||
| Jane Wilson |
When I first started driving I couldn't wait to do a five section marathon. I soon discovered however that my for my 13.2 pony to pull the two of us in a four wheeler at that speed for 3+ K was rather too much for him. He could do the time well enough, but if conditions were muddy or holding we then struggled to put up competitive times in the obstacles, no matter how fit I got him. So, I voted with my feet, and chose not to enter any event with a potentially difficult section C or one that I deemed to be on the hilly side. I have no aspirations to world domination (well, not MANY) in the driving world, I just want to enjoy it and end with a sense of achievement. I never however, wanted to gravitate to the lowest common denominator by insisting that just because my pony struggled, everyone else had to miss out section C! This seems to be what we're doing - is it to please some wimps on the continent? I don't know. I've no argument with making the walk more generous - and I've never struggled with that, so certainly have no axe to grind here - but I'm happy for it to be more of a chance for a breather and not a route march. | ||
| JOHN GAYNOR |
Interesting that the questionaire regarding 3 or 5 section marathons is going to come out AFTER the announcement that we are only going to have 3 section marathons!!I despair for our sport.There has been pressure from the continent for some time to alter-1/The walk times because certain breeds cannot make the times!2/Section C because some of the more wealthy competitors are buying Dressage horses and dont want to "stress" them! Our National Events are only going to be "club "events" but at twice or three times the cost of entry so why bother?All members should read the above notice posted by Douglas Strachen before our sport is destroyed. John Gaynor | ||
| Marilyn Harding |
5 section Marathons are a must as they are the ultimate challenge for national drivers. Horses (Ponies) must be very fit as so should the drivers in order to complete the course with as few errors as possible. I feel that too much attention is being paid to World Competition, as so few in our sport want to, or can aspire to these dizzy heights. Those drivers that want to go for gold, great, but not at the expense of our home drivers who are the main stay of our sport. As for the fast trot section ...those of you who watched Paula Radcliffe win the New York Marathon will perhaps have noticed she ran at the same speed as do our horses in section C! Makes one think eh!!!Long live the 5 section marathons. | ||
| Ian Gilbert |
The Competitions Committee wish to state, that the National Events have not been given a directive on the number of sections in the Marathon.This is a decision that is taken by the Event Organisers. The Competitions Committee are issuing a questionaire to ascertain the views of our members and this should be with you in the next few days. Please return this questionaire and have your views known, as one of the questions refers to the number of sections in the Marathon. | ||
| Patti Atkinson |
Hazards vary hugely at different events and not all are just 'technical'. Some events, notably Hopetoun and Catton (though I cannot comment on the more southerly events as I have mainly competed 'Up North'), have hazards that are a joy to drive... a combination of twisty and flowing. Others are just twisty and are harder on the horses and the drivers (well at least the older ones like me!). My original post was in favour of the 5 sections because of the buzz of that fast trot. My first horse was a heavy Clydesdale cross who REALLY had to try to make the time. Our first attempt was fast but not fast enough... our second we made it and said we didnt care if we got 'spun' it was so brilliant to make the time. In fact her heart rate was better after the fast trot! I can well understand the qualifiers for International being 3 section and I certainly don't have a problem with that (one day!!!who knows!!!). And I do realise that to organise both a 3 and a 5 section is much more difficult for the organisers. But I do regret that I never got to drive right up the fell at Lowther. | ||
| Christopher Priestley |
Could people accept a three section marathon if the terrain/route is testing and the obstacles test fitness by having a range of terrain and more physical tests, rather than having 8 boring "techinical" obstacles? ie quality to make up for lack of quantity. I'm not a competitor (so I don't really have a valid input I guess), but my two pennies worth as a spectator, volunteer and occasional backstepper is that that we could take the FEI rules (keeping the link with the sport internationally) and then make them our own with obstacles that frighten the competitors a bit more! | ||
| Rita Bundock |
The thrill of the marathon, oh! it use to be so exciting. 24 - 25k in length over tough COUNTRY terrain, rough tracks, tree roots, low branches, plank bridges, lumps and bumps everwhere. Obstacles on banks, steps and bridges all taken on as part of the course, after 10+k in Section A, then the fast section C of 3k then section E of another 10k. A test of fittness for horse and driver. All in a two wheeler with big wheels,this was real event driving. Now a three section marathon over made up tracks of no distance, technical rather than challenging obstacles. Where is our sport going? Yes, things move on, but lets move in the right direction. Health and Safety must come into it as well as insurance but there must be a balance where our exciting sport can continue to be exciting AND safe. Do we have to do what the FEI do? or could we return to being British and do our own thing, be our own masters in our own sport, not jump because the FEI say FROG. To me, Douglas and Patti are right, if you agree make sure that the Council know it. Put your thoughts on this Forum (it is looked at by Council Members, I know this as fact!)- attend the AGM at Brighton and make your feelings known. Lets keep our sport exciting not just a Sunday afternoon picnic drive. Rita Bundock | ||
| Douglas Strachan |
Is this the End of the 5-Section Marathon in the U.K.? I was extremely disappointed to learn that all National Events will only have 3-Section and not 5-Section Marathons in 2008. This raises several questions, i) Was this determined by the Individual Event Organisers ? ii) Was this determined by BHDTA Council ? iii) Was this decided because competitors do not like 5-Section Marathons ? iv) Was this a method of BHDTA Council, to diminish further the influence of marathon scores on the final placings ? 1) By Event Organisers I accept that a 3-Section Marathon is much easier to organise as it requires less ground and less stewards 2) By BHDTA Council If Council issued a Directive to Organisers to have only 3-Section Marathons, was this to accommodate the interests of only the 10% of the entrants who have realistic aspirations of International competitions? 3) By Competitors Is the Marathon phase of the events the one most enjoyed by competitors and a significant element of this is the opportunity to drive round glorious estates ? Or do competitors wish to follow the apparent Continental philosophy of reducing the length of the marathon? 4) Relative importance of Marathon to Dressage At present it appears that Dressage scores have a very significant influence on final placings The 5-Section Marathon gives the opportunity to lose marks on the fast trot and the second walk ( There is even now talk of modifying the speeds of the walk in the 3-Section Marathon to reduce the possibility of time penalties!!!) 5) Re-establishing the importance of the Marathon on Final Placing Approximately three years ago, the influence of Cones on the Final Placings was addressed by reducing the penalty for knock-downs from 5 to 3. If Council persist in following the 3-Section Marathon philosophy, and wish to re-establish the importance of the Marathon on Final Placings they could simply re-calculate all Dressage scores from 160 marks to 100 marks. Conclusion Unfortunately I shall be unable to attend the Competitors Discussion after the AGM at Brighton but I hope some member might wish to raise the following topics A) Must we follow the FEI trends or should we adapt to systems to suit the majority of competitors and hence encourage growth in our Sport (rather than wither by being hide-bound to dogma?) B) Where possible, can the 5-Section Marathons be re-introduced in 2009 ? C) Should the Dressage scores be re-calculated to give the Marathon more influence on the Final Placings ? Douglas Strachan 14.04.08 | ||
| Patti Atkinson |
Anyone else, like me, disapointed that the Nationals are all going to be 3 section marathons this year? There is such a thrill doing the fast trot and I am sure that both my single horses and my old pair went better at a 5 section marathon. They all seemed 'more up for it' when we got to the obstacles. |