| Author | Message | ||
     Stef Nuttall Member Username: Mordivock Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2008 |
the drivers should in my humble opinion rather than pick up penalties for being over time, should, if they haven't managed to have got their horses/ponies trained( fitness wise) should withdraw in the interests of equine welfare. An unfit equine is more likely to injure themselves than a fit one. it is upto the competitor to ensure that they have adequately prepared their horse(s)/pony(ponies) prior to the event. Driving trials should test the fitness & stamina; not just the althletic ability of those animals who perhaps are better bred & have the physic to find collection/extension easier than other animals. | ||
| Rachel Horton Member Username: Brenin Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2010 |
I do not usually join in these threads, but do read them with interest. I am a novice pony driver and am lucky to own a very lovely welsh section C. My skills are never going to set the world on fire and I will never be a potential Worlds competitor. But what I am is a person who enjoys her native pony and taking part in our great sport. My pony is at a livery yard where we are the only drivers. It is my pony that goes out in all weathers (well, almost all weathers), isn't spooked or silly about stuff, goes under through, by and past all sorts of things. On occasions having to be the lead horse past something scary. So although I appreciate my comments do not follow on directly from the original thread, I do think we all need to remember how great the average driving horse is and what a brilliant sport this is to be part of. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2011 |
Mike, I have to take issue with your post. There is a conflict between the requirements of the ridden dressage horse and the driven carriage horse. Here is a quote from an expert on sporthorse conformation. “When classifying the horse’s use according to driving power versus carrying power, the croup plays an even more important role than the shoulder. According to the Training Scale, the driving power should become carrying power, which requires an elastic quality of the joints. Horses that are mainly bred for pulling power – Friesians and Haflingers for example – have a somewhat straight croup. This provides the horse with the ability to push the hind back and thus use it more effectively for greater pushing power. But with a straight croup most horses of these breeds find it hard to step far enough under their centre of gravity to round their back up sufficiently to develop carrying power or the ability to collect according to the requirements of dressage.” Christian Schacht, German FN and vet, Breeding Director for the International Sporthorse Registry Oldenburg North America. So, true carriage horses will find it more difficult to do the modern dressage tests than the sport horses that were bred for those tests. Haflingers and Friesians are not UK natives it’s not a “Buy British” thing. The dressage horses you talk about may be descended from carriage horses but they have had the carriage part bred out. Sporthorses are bred to be different from carriage horses. I don’t really have a view on whether the old breeds should be retained but I do think that a carriage driving competition should be designed to test carriage driving abilities. Amongst other things we drive a pair of Shetland crosses. I recommend it. Eventually we will have to get warmbloods or take the decision that carriage horses are not suited to carriage driving trials and go off picnic driving. | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 10 Registered: 09-2008 |
Has anyone stopped to consider that these 'dressage horses' that are constantly held up as the killers of 'our' sport are predominately Dutch Harness Horses - ie the Dutch version of the Hackney (and which nearly all contain a fair bit of English Hackney Blood). Breeding in all sports horse types has for many years been streets ahead in Europe and it's only now we're slowly starting to catch up in other disciplines, maybe the time will come for driving. Is it right to moan that the rest of the world want a SPORT to suit the majority of SPORT horses out there? Or should we expect them to change the sport to suit our British Natives? Would we then be moaning because the Welshies with their flashy trot are beating our Highlands and Fells? Maybe we should all buy shetlands and be done with it. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 36 Registered: 07-2011 |
Hi Douglas, We had time penalties at Lowther but we are novice pony so not in your statistics. None of the novice horses had time penalties. Our problem was not fitness. Section A is on private land so we could not walk it. We lost time after a very slow river crossing (and crossing back!). After this the track climbed for 4.5km and having a small pony it would have been unfair to canter him up it. There was not enough distance after the hill to make it up. But speaking as a picnic driver it was a great section A and we can do the first 2k more quickly next time to solve the problem. I was wondering if some of the horses that failed were also taken by surprise. Or perhaps they were a bit small like our chap. Also, I would disagree that timed sections are an ideal test of fitness and stamina. A Shetland doing the old walk section in the time would have to be considerably fitter and harder than a full-up Welsh. The walk section was a test of stride length not fitness. I hope people are taking your comments seriously about horse types. The tests will shape the horses. However, surely there is more to it than just fitness and stamina? You mention The “European dressage horse” which was invented in the early twentieth century. You also mention the “marathon horse” – presumably invented by the new BHDTA tests in the late 1970’s. Neither of these types covers the type that I would call the “carriage horse” which was rendered obsolete by the internal combustion engine in the 1920’s. Perhaps this carriage horse should be allowed to go the way of the dodo but if you think it worth saving you will have to redesign your tests for the hackney and the haflinger and not keep playing what is essentially a warmblood vs thoroughbred game. Perhaps driving trials have been modelled too closely on the three day event. | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 39 Registered: 04-2008 |
Douglas, you don't need to spend months on it, just qualify your conclusion rather than risking looking like a conspiracy theorist! I do agree with your comments about the difference between fitness and stamina - an important distinction. On the subject of science and stamina (and fitness) in horse driving trials, there was a study done in the late 1980s by the Animal Health Trust for the BHS Driving Trials Group (as it was then). It'd be interesting to see a copy of that, if anyone has one stashed away. | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 13 Registered: 06-2007 |
Christopher. You are quite right. Before making such a sweeping conclusion, I should have spent months on analysis. I spent only half an hour on it. (20 minutes on times and 10 minutes reading the names of the animals) I had difficulty in spotting names such as Dan, Polly, Harry, etc but the list of animals looked almost like the team sheets of Arsenal, Chelsea, Man.City, etc which are full of very expensive foreign footballers !!!! Patti You are quite right about the source of the animals Initially, I only had “stamina” in my heading but realised that “fitness” should be included. as there is a difference. Usain Bolt is extremely “fit” but would he have the “stamina” to run a marathon? Article 959 still includes ”stamina” as one of the objectives of the marathon “Stamina” depends on whether today’s horse driving trials “athletes” are prepared to put in the hours and road miles to get their animals marathon “fit”. I hae ma doots.!!!!! (translation = I have my doubts) Combined with the abandonment of the “old” timed walk, the reduced speeds proposed for Section A, would suggest to this simple OAP that the FEI are determined to soften the rules to suit the animals rather than insist that “athletes” have animals which can achieve the FUNDAMENTAL of Driving TRIALS, the MARATHON | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 38 Registered: 04-2008 |
Douglas, this statistic is interesting and significant, but the conclusion isn't scientific. - Can you list the breeding of those horses that did not make the time (and those that did?) - What proportion of those that were late back were warmbloods? Was there any difference with the horses that did make it back in that time. - Can you comment on the causes for being late? There are other factors, besides fitness, that could affect the times (such as broken stopclock). - What other assessments of fitness can you provide to verify that the late times were due to fitness? - If the horses were unfit, how did their training, diet, etc., differ from those that did make the time? - Were the ambient environmental conditions the same? Did the ponies complete the marathon in the cool morning and the horses in the humid afternoon? - Is this pattern repeated at other competitions? Or was this just a statistical random event, like getting heads on a tossed coin three times in a row? In short, there are too many unknowns for you to use this data to support your theories about horses with non-native breeding. But I do feel it would be worth further investigation - the statistic is significant and conclusions supported by valid scientific evidence would be very useful to our sport. Another point - warmbloods have been used in our sport for many years. The Dutch, Germans and Swedes have all did very well with warmbloods in the 20km+ five section era. I fail to see how the purported dumbing down of the marathon is some sort of warmblood agenda. The perceived threat to the integrity of the marathon might have more to do with other political/economic pressures on the FEI rule makers; it would be a shame to be barking up the wrong warmblooded tree. | ||
| Patti Atkinson Member Username: Pattia Post Number: 88 Registered: 03-2007 |
Douglas thats rubbish - Just because a horse is 'continental' bred it doesnt mean it cant be fit. It may be that current drivers rarely have the opportunity to drive the more testing marathons so that the horses fitness is lacking but that is preparation not breeding. On Sunday lunchtime at Lowther five single 'continental bred' horses did the Lowther challenge very successfully following their cones classes. They were certainly 'fit enough'. | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2007 |
The results of the scenic modern Lowther marathon indicates that in the Intermediate Horse, Open Horse, Advanced Horse, Open Horse Pairs, and Advanced Horse Pairs, there were 31 competitors and of these 6 had time faults greater that 5 marks and 1 retired. ie a significant 23 % In the equivalent Pony classes there were 22 competitors and only 1 had more than 5 time penalties. In light of the proposed changes to the FEI rules what conclusion should this simple old man make ? Perhaps the predominance of continental “dressage” animals rather than “all-purpose marthon” animals ???? |