| Author | Message | ||
     Stef Nuttall Member Username: Mordivock Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2008 |
Douglas i remember 5 section marathons. It was a challenge to ensure your horse /ponies were fit enough to cope with whatever terrain you would come up against. As a new cocompetitor the speeds seemed fast, but with fitness & experience became easily achievable. Whilst better schooling achieves decent dressage scores as is to be welcomed,the marathon has lost its part in trials, which now appear to favour European bred animals. The reason i no longer compete is because my traditional cobs whilst would find the speeds and distance along with cones,easy, their dressage scores would be no where near horses bred for paces rather than stamina. Each phase should have equal merit for all types/breeds of animal. | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2007 |
A reminder!!!! If you don't want to have the "Picnic Drive" speeds in Section A ,please ,please advise BC H.Q. by the 9 August that you object to the slower new speeds proposed in FEI Art. 960.1 and wish to keep to the existing BC 2012 speeds in Art 941.1 From the GOM who wishes he was indeed from the baby boomer generation !!!! | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2011 |
I think you will find that “the many” are a pretty fragmented bunch. I doubt very much if there is one set of rules that will please anybody let alone everybody. Personally, I would like to see a long, scenic section A that anyone can do at a working trot – can’t see much hope of that! We were very pleased to see the end of section D because we have a small pony. If you are testing fitness with timed sections you really ought to make an allowance for the pony’s size. Similarly the marathon carriage weights for pairs and teams should reflect the weight of the ponies in front. On the other hand, should you also handicap the smaller, nippier ponies in the obstacles? You can go for spectator sport or participation sport but probably not both. If it’s participation you have to increase the numbers of competitors, reduce costs and probably reduce the number of stewards and time taken to complete the course. For example, you could attract more BDS and require fewer stewards by rethinking the obstacles (a course of 8 obstacles at 3-4 stewards per obstacle requires a lot of stewarding). You should also ask whether the dressage test is fit for purpose. The ridden test was originally designed as a test for the German artillery horses. They needed horses to be forward-going at all costs. They were not interested in the “lightness in the hand” that the classical dressage school aspires to. So the judges are required to mark rhythm and impulsion but not lightness. In contrast, carriage drivers should be very interested in lightness in the hand. You need to start testing for it or you will lose it. Interestingly, they used carriage horses as well as farm horses to develop the warmblood. The first thing they had to do was to breed OUT the vertical action of the carriage horses. So a test that produced the warmblood will redefine the carriage horse. Of course, on the forum this will bang around a bit and then be forgotten. Whatever did happen to the “SWOT” analysis”? | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2007 |
Very well said Jeff and Julia! | ||
| Julia Liles Member Username: Julial Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2007 |
This sport has always seen changes that have largely benefitted the many. I think it is the scale and acceleration of more recent changes to suit the few, that frightens us longer in the tooth and that the driving force is money. The FEI Driving Committee are so star struck, they simply rubber stamp the wishes of a few extremely talented, well resourced team drivers who feel their justifiable rewards of greater prize money and expenses will only be secured from the level of sponsorship generated from a televised sport. Unfortunately the media thrives on the immediate, and television requires the three phase event to be around thirty minutes filming, as in ridden eventing; so a sub twenty minute 'marathon' is key. This will also allow Grand Prix quality horses to be used to elevate the dressage phase visually for the audience. It will be a wonderful spectacle and a joy for all of us to watch but only viable for the elite to participate in, and television companies will only want the very best of the World Cuppers and a handful of Golden Wheelers. It's frustrating that the sport we signed on for has to be so radically changed for the many, to ultimately only serve the few. It shouldn't matter that the FEI put as much thought into grass roots as Bernie Eccleston does in go-carting, but sadly our own Council and Club committees seem to feel FEI directives must always be followed to the letter, again to suit the few. It jars that BC can allocate £6000 in prize money and expenses for the few competing for the Olympia Extreme Driving Challenge but allow the demise, for the many, of the Championships at the Review Ground, when WPEC could have staged the Regional there, with less subsidy, securing our annual usage of that area of the park and the retention of the obstacles. There probably will be schism, but fortunately every couple of millennium wise men come from the East, or in our case the South-east, and I foresee the resurrection of a sport to once again suit the many. Jeff | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 37 Registered: 04-2008 |
Good points, Mike. Rather than the FEI trying to take us to some sort of arena-based dystopia, the trend seems to be taking us more towards parity with Eventing, which explains some of the logic for the changes. Using the term 'athlete', rather than competitor comes from Eventing, which in turn comes from the Olympics. The short-format cross-country comes from pressure from Olympic organisers. So, taking this trend to it's ultimate conclusion... driving trials in the 2024 Olympics? ;-) And to second Mike's other comments, the sport needs to accommodate those on more modest means. The baby boomer generation never had it so good, but subsequent generations don't have as much disposable income or time. More two and one day events will be needed and British Carriagedriving need to address this - the FEI have provided the scope for this in the new rules. | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2008 |
Douglas, I'm not sure either Jane or I referred to 5 stage marathons as dreadful, my own point was just that's as a current and fairly new competitor to constantly be reminded about how much better it used to be is hardly encouraging or motivating. Also on what is this obsession that the FEI want a purely arena based event based? Eventers have had international ODEs for years and there are now arena events however the pinnacle of the sport is still the big 3DEs. Having a range of formats may tempt more people to compete - for example the keen indoors competitors would be well suited to the CAI*. Maybe if we follow the FEI philosophy, instead of your visions of doom, we'll end up with people who don't have overnight accommodation or side stabling or who are not able to take the considerable time off work required being able to compete at a high level. Just perhaps, whilst some of us are off enjoying our marathon (which after all is still able to be 18km albeit at a lower speed) those same potential competitors can be boosting event numbers and ADDING to the ambience at an event - I guess however they won't be true or worthy competitors as they won't have done their 5 sections. Times have changed and if we don't move with them we will have no sport. | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 10 Registered: 06-2007 |
It appears that the Sport is about to divide into two distinct categories, Trials and Arena Style. U.K. “Athletes” will come from the hundreds of grass-roots members, existing National competitors and the relatively few with realistic international aspirations. In the UK we are blessed with access to many estates which can easily accommodate 3-stage marathons. The continentals do not appear to enjoy this luxury. (or are not prepared to seek out suitable venues???) Jane and Mike B. You are quite right. On reflection, in the bad old days, we had to train and compete with our native animals to go up onto the Fells at Lowther and look down on Lake Ullswater, go through the lavender fields at Sandringham, go up the hill at Holker, etc,etc, and tackle natural obstacles such as the river and crater at Lowther etc.. We had to compete in classes of 15/20 and be pleased with a 6th rosette. The past is the past so farewell to the dreadful 5-stage marathon. and let us look forward.. If we follow the FEI philosophy we may even end up, in the not too distant future, with “Dressage Only” events and “Arena Style” events . This could result in a completely different ambience to that enjoyed at the present Trials. We will purchase a ready-made animal from the continent. Our lorry will not need overnight accommodation or stabling,. We won’t have time to socialise at our obstacle inspections, or in the evenings. We will enjoy an alcohol free event as we will have to drive home from the one-day scurry/arena event. We will enjoy walking the man-made post and rail flat obstacles. We will enjoy driving the “marathon” round the perimeter of the arena car park. We won’t need to train in miserable early year weather for stamina. . If prize money is available then rivalry will increase and the friendliness of the existing driving fraternity will diminish .etc etc. The Members of the BC Council are our representatives and if we want to maintain the BRITISH STYLE of 3-day Driving Trial with a 3-stage marathon then please, please inform them of your wishes and instruct them to reject the proposed FEI speeds in Article 960.1 and to change the FEI description of “Marathon Section” to Obstacle Section” Ps In about 10 years time, if the FEI have their wicked ways, we won’t need horses, “athletes” or events as it will all be reduced to virtual reality with a magic box at home . ( I wonder if the FEI will however still need the same number of Officials ?) From he who was a Grumpy Old Man but now a Happy Clappy Old Man | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 36 Registered: 04-2008 |
Can we not have both? My guess is that most people would be happy to keep the three section marathon (the walk/transfer is another debate). But there are advantages to having a short format marathon. Eventing stopped using the roads and tracks elements a few years back; ultimately they were able to run an Olympic competition in a city park last year. I've also seen a fantastic international three-day event in a park in the city of Malmo. Both had great spectator interest and were only possible because of the short format used by eventing these days. I think there would be a benefit to using the new short format marathons. We could take the outdoor driving to places it couldn't go before, drumming up interest and sponsorship revenue. However, in the UK we are blessed with lovely country estates and some very generous landowners. The three section format lends itself very well to such facilities and we should do our utmost to ensure that the marathon stays as it is for most competitions. We need to lobby the FEI to keep the three section in the full international rules. It would be a disaster to have to break away from the FEI family; serious sports should be codified to international standards. | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 8 Registered: 09-2008 |
My argument is not that our horses won't be fit enough but that they will perhaps drive differently in the obstacles with a different routine beforehand and I beilieve that regardless of what we choose to do or not do that I think selection classes will have to follow the FEI. Other than that I don't have particularly strong feelings - my horse (continental warmblood ie just the type the conspiracy theorists feel these new rules are written for) is probably more suited to our current system and my native pony would probably be better with the proposed system so it guess it will be horses for courses. I certainly wouldn't like to see the end of the marathon altogether but as section penalties are relatively few and far between at the moment I'm not sure the proposed change will have a significant impact on the outcome of many events. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2008 |
Sorry if I wasn't clear, with Windsor no longer being financially viable and by the looks of it more funds are needed for Sandringham next year. The problem is events (national ones) seem to becoming to costly to run under the current format. So without increasing entry fees, using less land for the marathon seems a good way to cut costs?? I'm not saying thats the reason for the change but shortened marathons would be less costly. Very good points other mike -practising one format to go and compete at a world championship with a different format of course would be a disadvantage, a fresher horse will be very different in the obstacles to what you have been practising with. And although you could say why should it be changed for the ones who have aspirations to compete abroad. The better we do abroad the more funding BC can get! | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 53 Registered: 06-2007 |
Mike (2) As stated, I certainly don't want to hark back to the old days, but neither do I want to see any further erosion of the test which is marathon day. At Sandringham, held on one of the hottest days of the year, I didn't see anyone coming into the obstacles lacking in any freshness at all - even the novices put up some cracking times. Using your own argument, if our international drivers have horses which are fit enough to cope with our current marathon distances and speeds, then they will come to foreign obstacles much fresher and do a better job! I can't see how that would be a disadvantage. | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 7 Registered: 09-2008 |
As someone fairly new to the sport I find the constant harking back to the good old days somewhat tiresome - it's almost as those of us who haven't driven a 5 section marathon are somehow not worthy. The bottom line is it's the obstacles that are the big draw of the sport and if horses arrive at them a bit fresher they'll do a better job. I also can't see how our international competitors won't be disadvantaged - they'd need experience competing over the same format of event as they'll be attending, horses will 'feel' and perform differently with this format. There were similar grumps when Eventing did away with the steeplechase - would anyone say standards there have decreased? Are the horses now unfit? Is eventing now purely an arena sport? | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 52 Registered: 06-2007 |
'Mike', what do you perceive as the problem which requires an alternative solution? I wouldn't want to go back to Douglas's good old days, with five section marathons and mad hikes up hill and down dale at speed, but neither would I want to simply accept the FEI edicts en bloc - which will most certainly change the face of competition carriage driving as we know it. I'm sad that more people haven't had their say, but do we take from that that the majority don't care one way or the other? If so, then quite frankly they deserve what ever it is that they get. I don't think that any of our international competitors will be disadvantaged if we stick to the current British National rules - if it was the other way around and we already had the lower speeds and less of a marathon test and the FEI were suggesting the opposite then yes, that would be an issue for those few (relatively speaking) drivers with international aspirations. Let the FEI do their thing I say, and we'll do ours, keep the distances, keep the speed and keep the walk. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2008 |
Douglas I was fairly sure you would have replied, as did I a week later than yourself. It's just a shame others did not take the opportunity to have their say. If more people had voiced their opinions when the rule changes were being considered, then it may have had changed the outcome. However, nobody's post on the topic is yet to offer an alternative or solution to the problem,there is nothing positive in the comments, just complaints about change. As venue and other costs are increasing how else can we keep events running without increasing entry fees? What other practical solution is there other than to reduce the amount of land needed for the marathon (by shortening the marathon) and thus reducing costs by hiring less land? I'm not in favour of shortening the marathon but the sport may have to change and evolve to keep itself affordable and sustainable. What other solution is there? | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 9 Registered: 06-2007 |
Michael. For the record , on 21 March , I sent to BC my comments on the FEI proposals. Along with other comments, I recommended that Proposal B, to reduce speeds, should be REJECTED.. I therefore feel justified in submitting to the Forum what, in my opinion, is a RED ALERT. It is interesting that in 75 pages of FEI new rules, I can not find FEI repeating their statement in the old rules 904.3.2 which stated “Competition B (Marathon) is to be considered the most important” Article 959 in the new rules repeats the statement “The objective of the Marathon is to test the fitness, stamina and training of the Horses, ….” The BHDTA Mission Statement dated 29.10.2012 states “Performance To raise standards” How , by reducing speeds, is this raising standards? | ||
| Lorraine Davies Member Username: Leakys1 Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2007 |
Your choice as to whether you 'warm up' for the marathon. Doesn't mean they should change the format for us. Sorry, I believe they are changing the format completely and they will not be happy until we have an arena challenge, whether we like it or not. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2008 |
The BC Council published the proposed 2014 rule changes earlier this year (February/March time) asking people for feedback and views about the proposals. As I remember there were only around 3 responses regarding the changes. Your chance to have your moan about it was then, and if you didn't summit feedback you can't complain about it now. I think the idea of the new Section A is to combine it with the walk. The slower time will mean you can walk and trot bits or start of with a more gentle trot instead of going straight into a 14kph/15kph trot. This way it allows the horse to warm up more gradually which is better for them. (how many people actually warm up for the marathon? or do you just go straight into section A cold? which must increase the chance of injury). That is only my understanding of the reasoning for the changes. | ||
| Goldie Francis Member Username: Gooks Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2013 |
I thought I was having a Senior Moment on reading Douglas's post but on checking the calendar it was not April Fool's Day! It just beggars belief. | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2008 |
When "outsiders" enquire about our sport, and you refer to "The Marathon", I think they politely hold back their sniggers when they find out just what "The Marathon" consists of! It's a joke. Douglas, your Posting's title sums it up perfectly! | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Member Username: Nicolettepurple Post Number: 66 Registered: 05-2008 |
Some ponies and horses struggle to go slow enough as the pony is very keen and wants to trot at its own pace. Already my daughter has to to slow pony down and this uses more energy than allowing the pony to trot freely. If they are a little pony and fit, it is harder to pull slower I think, as they have more weight to pull for heir size. If the speeds get any slower, people will have to bother even less with fitness. These horses and ponies are supposed to be athletes...... | ||
| Dot Willcoxson Member Username: Dotw Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2007 |
Hello Douglas. You may be interested to hear that there is a championship event in Australia which is having a 5 section marathon. However, to cater for the under 121cm single ponies, they are reducing the speed for Section C. Some of the new drivers didn't even know there was a fast trot in a 5 section marathon. As an organiser I am not a big fan of 5 section marathons although I did organise one in 2009. I do not believe in 'dumbing down' speeds although I can see this happening more and more here in the colonies. | ||
| David Taylor Member Username: Davidt Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2007 |
To put this further into perspective when I started competing Section A for ponies was 15kph, C was 18kph - both at trot only - and the course was up to 28kms long. I successfully made those times with a tandem of 11.1 hh ponies including at Lowther! | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2007 |
The FEI Driving Rules for 2014 confirm that the importance of the "Marathon" is being further diminished. Remember that we have gone from a 5-stage marathon to a 3-stage marathon (including a timed walk) to a 2-stage marathon with a transition section. The latest ruling from Lausanne now REDUCES THE SPEEDS IN SECTION A in a 2-stage marathon with no minimum transition distance. In 2013 the Horse Speed was 15kph and the Pony Speed was 14kph In 2014 the Horse speed will be max 13kph min 11kph and the Pony speed will be max. 12kph and min. 10kph !!!!!! In Art 960.2, I wonder, if in translation, the use of "marathon" is inappropriate as it refers to a "scurry/arena" course length of 600/800 metres with 3 obstacles |