| Author | Message | ||
     Danielle Twitchen Member Username: Daniellet Post Number: 16 Registered: 03-2007 |
My backsteppers are not young (far from it) and this year have got to wear body protectors when on the marathon because i have told them. I got mine last year and had no problems driving whilst wearing and some marathon days were hot! I think if I can protect them whilst on the carriage it's better than nothing | ||
| Liz Harcombe Member Username: Lizzyh Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2010 |
Further to Caroline's question...I have been trying to decipher if the rules affect navigators under 18 if the driver is suitably old! Does my young navigator/backstepper have to wear a bp even if the driver does not? I am all for the need to be as safe as we can, who can argue with that? There is a point to be made, though, that a navigator could have their movement restricted by wearing one. A backstepper is more active than the driver and making a fast muscular effort and raised breathing rate is made more difficult when your movement is restricted...just a thought. | ||
| Caroline Gill Member Username: Carolineg Post Number: 26 Registered: 05-2009 |
As a parent of a 13 yr old driver I am following this thread with interest! Fiona could I just confirm from your last post that under 18s MUST wear hard hats in all 3 phases but bps are only compulsory in the marathon? | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2011 |
You are still making the assumption that these “body protectors” will protect bodies in the driving environment. If that assumption is wrong you could be exposing juniors to more danger not less. (See also earlier comments about steel toe-caps). Driving body protectors are based on riding body protectors but have a bit cut off so that you can sit down in them. They are therefore deemed unsafe for riding. Backsteppers don’t sit down very much in sectionE. If a backstepper falls off a carriage his/her absolute safety priority is to get back on quickly. Some of the back protectors I have seen will hinder that. I believe riding body protectors are compulsory for cross-country but not dressage or even show-jumping. They are also compulsory for some pony club activities but we’ve done pony club and there are children falling off unruly ponies every few minutes. It’s not at all like driving. The issue of body protectors (and hats) must be looked at because the FEI has jumped the gun with its rules. However, it affects all drivers/grooms not just the juniors. Also, the process must start with a proper risk assessment not a retailer’s brochure. I know that EACDG is concerned with safety and prepared to be proactive. That’s one of the things that makes it a good club. I just don’t think this issue should be dealt with at club level. | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Member Username: Nicolettepurple Post Number: 33 Registered: 05-2008 |
Our club rule for juniors is hard hat when on a carriage and body protector in marathon phase is compulsory. I think this is a sensible rule for juniors but allows individual families to make a decision about body protectors in the cones and dressage phase. As a parent I wouldn't force my children to wear body protectors in these two phases although of course, it is sensible because an accident can happen at any time if a pony is spooked or trips etc... If my children were very young then I probably would make them wear them at all times because they don't have much strength or experience. It does look like there is a piece of work to be done about what safety equipment is acceptable and exactly what hard hat and body protector "mean" in relation to driving. Good luck with whoevers job that is!! Nicolette | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2011 |
As parents we have such a strong desire to protect our children – especially the little ones – that it becomes more of a knee-jerk reaction. For example, you are using hard hats and body protectors that were designed and approved for riding NOT driving. So would you put child seats into your car that were not approved? Also, do you yourself always put on a hard hat AND body protector every time you get on a carriage with or without your children ? If the the answer is no then at what age between 85 and 5 do you think it should be made compulsory? I don’t really know what should be done with the very little ones. My children rode and drove largely without body protectors. I would probably do it differently now. At that time a lot of people wanted to ban them completely. However, I started this thread because I am concerned about the amount of unnecessary regulation that is being applied to big strapping teenagers who happen to be under 18. Specifically, I can’t see why they need additional rules compared to the adults. I understand why the BHDTA wants to look at body protector rules slowly and carefully before making a decision. I just can’t see why the same reservations do not apply to children – especially the big ones. | ||
| Danielle Twitchen Member Username: Daniellet Post Number: 13 Registered: 03-2007 |
My children are both 9 and 5 years (of which the 9yr old has just started competing at indoors) and under no circumstances would we ever let them come on the carriage without their hat AND body protector. They have to wear them to ride their ponies so why shouldn't they when on the carriage | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 119 Registered: 03-2007 |
Correction: what the EACDG committee agreed was that everyone under 18 must wear a body protector for all sections of the marathon. And all drivers under 18 must wear a hard hat for all phases. Apologies! FP, Sec. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2008 |
Mr Snow your requesting of the same rules for juniors as adults may be better suggested to the rules committee rather than demanding them on here. although i do agree we shouldn't have different rules just for juniors just for the sake of it. i drive all season with no body protectors and just for the junior championships i have to wear one. do my chances of occuring a back injury increase at this events? and am i more likely to have a back injury than an adult? | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 9 Registered: 07-2011 |
Hi Fiona, Re: assessment of young drivers – what actually happens. Annex 18 was a fairly recent addition to the rules. I’m not sure how recent because it does not appear in “BHDTA RULE CHANGES”. As well as this apparent lack of audit trail Annex 18 also deals with conduct at training sessions. This would seem to be outside the scope of the rules themselves which are entitled “Rules for Horse Driving Trials 2011”. The wording of annex 18 is lifted mainly from the schedule of the Junior National Championships. This is the only BHDTA driving trials for juniors so presumably the only valid activity to which annex 18 applies. There are no classes for 5-10 year olds at the junior nationals. So, in my opinion, there are no BYD assessments as such. Or, put a different way, 100% of the 0 competitors get assessed. This of course means that the club and IHDTA assessments of novice drivers (junior and adult) are vital for these people to begin the sport safely. I would also point out that we have never had a training session with BHDTA (or BDS) where the turnout was not assessed before the session. Trainers do this automatically whether you are a junior or not. Another source of misunderstanding is that the “juniors” I have been talking about are teenagers not toddlers. The FEI has recently (December 2011) defined juniors as 14-18 year olds. There is a new class for “Children” 12-14 year olds and “Young Drivers” are now defined as 16-21. I doubt whether the FEI will ever accept the existence of 5-10 year olds so you will have to decide yourself what to call them! There are, and as far as I can see, there have always been rules for 14 years and over in the main body of the BHDTA rules so I can’t quite see the point of annex 18. It does, however, introduce a body protector rule for marathon and surely this is premature since the BHDTA has not yet ruled on this for adult members. This does not mean that I am against body protectors but whatever happened to dear old “risk assessment” as a tool for decision making? Should we be wrapping up other parts of our anatomy (toe protectors, shin pads, etc) which are more exposed? Incidentally, in woodwork and metalwork we were always taught never to wear gloves near moving machinery. When I backstep my hands are inches away from back wheels and disk brakes. I would say that the risk of getting my fingers ripped off was greater than the risk of rope burn. Also, if I need to adjust bridle or curb chain quickly I have to take my gloves off. Usually at this stage I drop one of them ... So, no more rules for junior (teenagers) unless you can prove the risk dictates it. | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 117 Registered: 03-2007 |
Thanks for this! re. assessment of young drivers - yes, as you say, Daniel, we assess all new drivers using the BHDTA forms before they compete (for indoors and EACDG…). I understood that special BYD trainer assessors assessed young drivers (5-10) (Annex 18, 4.9) for driving without dual reins and/or in a four-wheeler? (I read the rules and try to understand what actually happens, but am happy to be further enlightened?) Yes, we (EACDG) will be asking judges not to penalise any driver or groom (any age) who chooses to wear a hard hat for dressage, however smart hard hats will be looked on more favourably than crash hats, one imagines. In presentation judging, of course, “hard hats and marathon clothes” are acceptable, so there’s no problem(?) – see presentation form for NNQ, although this is not specifically mentioned in the “presentation guidelines”. Presentation is judged with “safety the top priority” so one can’t argue with wearing a hard hat and body protector for all phases, can one? Presumably for all classes? I understood that the fit of the body protector was important, so if you are a long-backed driver, you might need a "riding" one. There are now some protectors coming out which are recommended for drivers and some which are "for carriage driving" and these are usually shorter backed - but if you're a groom (or both) then you'll need two, I would suggest!? Are we going to have bp kit inspection at the start of A? But it would be a good idea to see some evidence we need to wear them? Accident reports? The accidents I know of (so far, touching wood) have been to heads, legs, arms/wrists, two with broken vertebra and some broken ribs. All but one person were wearing hard hats. p.s. British Kitemark recommend you replace your hard hat every 3-4 years... er… | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2008 |
The BHDTA young driver rules (annex 18) in the rule book, are for '1.1 These rules apply for all young competitors at BHDTA training events and British Young Drivers competitions and are recommended to Affiliated Clubs.' Body protectors are compulsory at byd events in the marathon phase for drivers under 18 - '4.3 In the marathon phase, drivers of 18 and under must wear a body protector. It is recommended for grooms.' Hard hats are compulsory for under 14s (not 16) in dressage and cones, which i think seems sensible. '4.2 Driver and groom must each wear a BHS approved hat at all times when on the carriage for training, exercising and marathon phases and at all times in all phases for drivers of 14 and under.' EACDG can enforce their new rule, regardless of weather their reason is correct, although it does seem strange to insist body protectors and hard hats are worn in dressage, when some judges mark you down for having a hard hat on. '6.3 Affiliated Clubs may choose to adopt these rules as written or amended to suit their requirements.' In Hungary we were running under the ICKD, there rules on body protectors are as followed '- Body protectors are obligatory in Competition A for Competitors in Class 0 and 1. - Body protectors are obligatory in Competition C for Competitors and Grooms in all classes.' Since JWT is not a fei recognised event, ICKD have their own rules. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 8 Registered: 07-2011 |
Fiona, you wrote:- “The EACDG has brought in a rule this season that all juniors must wear body protectors and helmets for all phases, the argument being that all the children must go through BYD to be assessed and they must wear them then.” I’m not sure what you mean by “assessed”. Hard hats are pretty standard but body protectors are not routinely worn at BYD training camps. At competitions juniors do not wear hard hats for dressage/cones once they reach 16 years of age. Will you be overriding that rule? I think any new drivers whether young or old should be assessed by the club before they compete for the first few time(s) at the club. To me, this is the real value of the standing presentation for novice and pre-novice, not how shiny the lamps are. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2011 |
A previous post said the following:- “In short, the BETA 2000 standard has a Level 3 specification (the garments should be identified with purple labels) specifically for carriage drivers and passengers.” Is this really what the document is saying?. The document states that Level 3 (purple) is for all users except for jockeys (level1). It also mentions level 2 but then doesn’t say who level 2 back protectors apply to. Level 3 (purple) is not specifically for drivers. However, if the body protector was made specifically for drivers it must bear a special label to say that it should not be used for riding due to lack of back support. This document has been written by people who sell those nice chunky back protectors in reputable tack shops. The main purpose is to dissuade you from buying the cheap motorcyle back protectors being sold for a fiver in LIDL. If you run with this document it will be like the tail wagging the dog. British Standard EN 13158:2009 was probably written by or largely with BETA so I am not convinced it should be regarded as a separate document. If you make a rule it should be for safety not for the retail trade. Apart from the retailer conflict of interest it seems to me that most equine body protectors are designed to protect from a fall from a large horse – either vertically downwards or rider being aimed against a large cross-country object. So a good chance of hitting the body. With carriages you tend to get thrown out sideways – hence the survey sample being more worried about limbs and head injuries. We don’t really have a local club so we travel around a bit. I think others do too. It would be helpful to have one set of BHDTA rules rather than various different club rules. It also seems unnecessary to me to have extra rules for juniors. If the dressage/cones is not very dangerous then why dress the juniors up like little Michelin men? And if it is dangerous (which I think is what Fiona is saying) then why do you all go around in felt hats? | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 45 Registered: 03-2007 |
There'll be a lot of Zilco hats in the bin then Fiona! Do you think there are many driving accidents where the driver flies off and lands head first? Not sure. ;o) | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 116 Registered: 03-2007 |
I believe new standards for hard hats are due out 1 March - and H&H reported that collapsible peaks are to be preferred as hard fixed peaks can cause injury. As Sallie Walrond says, "It depends what kind of accident you are planning to have." | ||
| Vic Kusin Moderator Username: Vic Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2007 |
Just for information, there are a couple of standards for body protectors for drivers in existence (since 2009 as far as I can determine). British Standard EN 13158:2009 - "Protective clothing. Protective jackets, body and shoulder protectors for equestrian use: For horse riders and those working with horses, and for horse drivers." This standard sets out the requirements, performance, ergonomics and marking for these products. The full document can be ordered from the BSI for a mere £199 - I shan't be buying one just yet. The British Equestrian Trade Association (BETA) also have a standard, which has been brought into line with the EN 13158 and in some aspects actually exceeds it. Products complying with the BETA 2000 Standard will thus also meet the requirements of EN 13158. This BETA 2000 Standard has been prepared by the Protective Clothing Research Facility in the Physiological Laboratory of Cambridge University. It is intended that protective clothing conforming to this Standard will comply with the Basic Health and Safety Requirements in Annex II of the Personal Protective Equipment Directive 89/686/EEC. (sorry, maybe starting to get too technical here) In short, the BETA 2000 standard has a Level 3 specification (the garments should be identified with purple labels) specifically for carriage drivers and passengers. It may be worth noting that the BETA Standard provides a minimum industry standard for performance for this type of garment, including guidance on the level of shock-absorbing protection provided - but IT IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF SAFETY. BETA Level 3 (purple): "Protectors providing a level of protection that is considered appropriate for normal horse driving competitions and for exercising horses in harness. Warning: This protector is designed to meet the needs of horse drivers and passengers. It does not provide adequate coverage of the back for those riding horses or those working with them." I have put a copy of the BETA standard on our website: http://www.horsedrivingtrials.co.uk/reference/beta-2009-standard-body-protectors .pdf if you want to read the whole document - it's only 12 pages. Of course, the BHDTA do not at this time make any rules about body protectors. The FEI rules do not specify what type of protector should be used - I don't think there is an EU standard at the moment. EN 13158:2009 is probably pretty close to one, though. It is interesting to note that BETA quite categorically say that the driving (purple label) protectors are not to be used for riding horses and they also seem to infer that riding-style protectors are not suitable for driving. In future, a lot will depend on the insurance companies and what they require us to do. As there is already an existing standard, it would make sense in the meantime to make sure your protectors have the BETA 2000 purple label. If we are asked to adopt a standard, this is most likely to be it. Vic. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2011 |
"About 53% thought that injuries to arms, legs, hands and feet were the most common - about 12% thought head injuries the most common." I'd go with the 53%. I just bought a pair of boots with steel toecaps and they've already paid for themselves thrice over. The FEI has not yet ruled on these. I am curious to know how many injuries to the body or back there have been. Are you legislating against a non-existent risk? | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 115 Registered: 03-2007 |
200 people kindly filled in my Inharness magazine survey recently - they were not all drivers and not all the drivers were competitive. About 55% said they wore a hard hat always for driving. About 53% said they had no plans to get a body protector. About 52% of those who said they had a body protector said they never wear it. About 53% thought that injuries to arms, legs, hands and feet were the most common - about 12% thought head injuries the most common. Over 50% thought that body protectors should be optional at nationals, club and indoor hdt. A breakdown of accident statistics would also be useful, I think...? | ||
| Ruth Auton Member Username: Rauton Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2007 |
Daniel, they meet safety standards [kite marked], which is the standard agreed by eventing and other equestrian disciplines. intersting that Fiona says EACDG has introduced the rule but not stated to what standard/rule either. I think we are talking about different standards/rules - one by our governing body and one to meet safety standards. interestingly the bps that inflate when you depart from your saddle / horse do not meet safety standards and are not approved to be used in eventing on thier own - they have to be used with an approaved bp aswell. | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 114 Registered: 03-2007 |
Daniel, I agree! What is the answer? Many drivers prefer not to wear helmets at events unless they have to when they are competing in the marathon (as a sue-able event organiser, this gives me the wobblies). There is, as far as I know, no standard for hard hats worn for hdt, either... I think most people would agree that compelling people to wear hard hats on the marathon is A Good Thing. More people are wearing body protectors voluntarily. The EACDG has brought in a rule this season that all juniors must wear body protectors and helmets for all phases, the argument being that all the children must go through BYD to be assessed and they must wear them then. It does, however, preclude any keen and competent child from backstepping for dressage and cones if they don't have one. What do you think we should do as a sport? | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2011 |
Thank you, Ruth. We do need to get new ones. However, I don’t see how your bp’s can meet “safety requirements” because none of the FEI, BHDTA or driving clubs have specified any safety requirements. To give an example, many of the riding hats that met Pony Club requirements when my children joined would not pass the inspection test now. They all meet safety standards but not Pony Club safety standards. The Pony Club publishes its minimum standards. The BHDTA/FEI/Clubs don’t have one. This was the objection raised by the BHDTA about the FEI rule. But if it hasn’t yet been resolved for the adults how can it have been resolved for the juniors? | ||
| Ruth Auton Member Username: Rauton Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2007 |
we have had a Rodney Powell BP made to measure bespoke for driving, but still meeting safety requirements. they measured her and made the BP with growing room at no extra cost than a'off the peg' one. they will even do your marathon colours at an extra cost! we visited The Rutland Saddlery shop and had a great service - deliverd within 10 days of order - www.therutlandsaddleryshop.co.uk | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2008 |
In Hungary we were running under ICKD rules, bhdta have nothing to do with these. fei - body/back protectors are compulsory only on section E (i think or the whole marathon) Bhdta body/back protectors are not compulsory even for juniors. some clubs have made them compulsory for juniors, but this is their own rules and will vary depending on which club you are at. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2011 |
I am seeing more and more regulations that children must wear “body” protectors. At first glance this seems reasonable. I have 2 children driving. They are very precious and I would like to take all reasonable precautions on their (and my) safety. However, the BHDTA would not make them compulsory in 2010 (apparently on the advice of their insurers?). So if you can’t agree on a rule for the grown-ups should you be making one for the children? Grooming in Hungary JWT 2010 I was required to wear a body protector over suit and tie. The temperature was 30 degrees. This was to protect me from serious injury during dressage and cones! It was completely potty. The FEI rule states that “back” protectors” must be worn. The rule currently being applied to juniors is that “body” protectors must be worn. There are no definitions or standards for what a “body” protector or even a “back” protector actually is – so a piece of string with a bath sponge would presumably be ok (it would have helped in Hungary!). So if you don’t really know what one is how can you make it compulsory? If it’s not designed for driving should it be permitted? Will you be liable if a child is wearing the wrong type of body protector? How do you police the rule? If a competitor has driven 300 miles to attend your event and you don’t like his choice of back protector what do you do? What if a child gets heat-stroke during the dressage as a result of wearing one? Given that they restrict movement do you have valid evidence that body protectors make carriage driving safer? |