| Author | Message | ||
     Rosemary Neale Member Username: Rosemaryn Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2007 |
Sorry no names, no pack drill! But am I right about international competitions? | ||
| Chris Atkins Member Username: Steward Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2010 |
Just to pick up on one of Rosemary's points. I spent nearly 20 years as a writer. I wrote for probationers through to invited International judges and from standing presentation to every point of the arena. I was NEVER once asked to offer a presentation mark and I have never heard of this from any other writers and yes we do swap comments about our days with the judges. I'd like to know which judge "often" does this. | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2007 |
The instruction to judges for standing presentation at the NEDTL does indeed state that you should start with a 10 and only deduct marks for something which "fails to meet the standard". The emphasis is very much on safety, correct fit and cleanliness and on that basis I agree that it would be far more appropriate to call it a harness check and not give it a mark! The carriage driving that we all take part in is a relatively new and modern sport, even if it has it's roots in the traditions of coaching. I'm glad to say that the days when you could lose a huge percentage of your mark for wrinkled socks or a grooms tie that was deemed to be 'too sharp' - and a judge who carried a mirror on a stick to inspect the underside of your carriage - are long gone! However, I do believe that it's important to maintain a certain standard and Rosemary makes some very valid points - plus we should all have something to strive for. Both standing and on the move the matter of hats and colour schemes will always be subjective but I don't believe you should be marked down for having a breast collar - provided it is clean and well-fitted - or for having a three phase vehicle on the same basis. Others will disagree, I'm sure. At the end of the day, there is a box available for judges to comment on your presentation and I agree it would be helpful to know why one judge thought you were 'fairly good' and another that you were 'very good'. Perhaps one or more of our esteemed judges could pen a treatise on the subject of presentation for the modern day? | ||
| Rosemary Neale Member Username: Rosemaryn Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2007 |
There is a difference between standing presentation and presentation on the move. In standing obviously the judge can inspect you closely but in on the move the judge can only give a mark for overall impression and having written for some judges (who often leave the presentation mark to the writer!)you can see whether the nice new harness and vehicle actually look good while on the move. Some harness clearly doesn't fit well and sags and bags when on the move or is too tight and the animal(s) can't move well in it and sometimes the new vehicle just looks too big or too small. Also when looking at a turnout on the move your eye often gets drawn to some feature which isn't quite right and which then detracts from the overall impression (eg a hat band which is too large and brightly coloured and so pulls your eye away from the rest of the turnout). I have done both showing and HDT and when showing I always get someone to look at my turnout on the move and critique it so that they can see what the judge will see - taking a video is also a good idea and it is surprising that the lovely red jacket you bought actually looks really garish in your turnout as a whole! Also some judges make a point of never giving above a 7 if the turnout is in breast collar(s) rather than full collar(s) I agree it's a bit of a minefield and does as previous people have said rather beg the question of whether the presentation mark should form part of the dressage sheet - I think I'm right in saying that at international competitions the presentation is a separate competition, not everyone enters and does not form part of the overall competition scoring but needs to be as perfect as possible because the overall impression really does affect the subjective impression that the judge has of the turnout. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 13 Registered: 03-2007 |
As 'presentation' marks are so subjective maybe the judges should all strat with a 10 and then knock points off BUT with a comment as to why. We have had exactly the same turnout (change of ponies only) and have ranged from 5 to 10 this year with no explanation. | ||
| Diane Phillips Member Username: Dianephillips Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2010 |
It's really nice to know that we're not the only one who suffers in the hands of the judges. I've only had to endure standing presentation once or twice (and on one occasion it was so muddy that by the time we got to the presentation it looked like we'd not bothered! The judge did take that into consideration). But at least you're told why you've lost a mark. In the open classes we are left to guess and as Wendy says, how can we improve our turnout (because it obviously does need improving somewhere) if the judge doesn't take the extra couple of seconds to add one further comment. | ||
| Phillip Reeves Member Username: Philreeves Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2010 |
Janet again! I lost a mark once for not carrying matches and a spare candle! If I needed my lamps lit trust me I wouldn't be in a fit state to drive I'd been panicking somewhere!Don't get me wrong everyone needs to be safe( my nickname from Phill is Mrs health and safety) so I think a safety check would still be appropriate ,I'm sure competitors wouldnt object, it's no big deal before the marathon! | ||
| Wendy Embleton Member Username: Bwemble Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2009 |
With regards to Standing Presentation before dressage, my club has moved the Standing Presentation to 45 minutes before dressage. This has proved to be popular with the vast majority of competitors. I do understand that there is etiquette but I think we should not lose sight of the fact that this is Horse Driving Trials not Private Driving. In general the judges do a good job, however I feel that being marked down because the ribbon on a hat is too wide for a judges liking is a little harsh. Maybe it would benefit both the judges and competitors if the criteria were to be standardised. Perhaps for pre-novice and novice classes the Standing Presentation should be renamed the Safety and Guidance Check with no marks being added or taken away to the dressage score. I feel that it is important to remember that points lost should be backed up with helpful and constructive comments that serve to encourage, not dishearten. | ||
| Frances Collings Member Username: Victory Post Number: 12 Registered: 03-2007 |
Well we went to Erdigg the first year and Ian's boots were straight out of the box, like the gloves mentioned before, and we were marked down for 'dirty boots'!! | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 62 Registered: 03-2007 |
I understand that the BHDTA is to publish some presentation guidelines... The 2011 national novice presentation judging form says a three-phase vehicle and hard hats and "marathon clothes" are acceptable. Should this mean they are acceptable for open classes, too?! | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 16 Registered: 03-2008 |
I totally agree Janet. Standing Presentation is something The Devil must have dreamed up on a bad night!!!! Most Novices get more wound up worrying about it than the Dressage test itself! If we wanted to do a showing class, we'd have joined the BDS. I'm all for a smart, clean turnout of horse, carriage, whip and groom but it can get ridiculous. My groom once got marked down because his gloves were said to be untidy. They were brand new, out-of-the-packet that morning! We've also lost marks because there's been the odd stone chip on our ( 3 phase) carriage! One judge said my groom's shirt was too big for her- she's a size 14, the shirt was a size 14! What can you do???? A safety check first and then an overall mark from the Dressage judge on the move would be far more appropriate. We could then concentrate purely on working-in for the test. As the timetable for Standing Presentation rarely runs to schedule, working-in becomes a very haphazard thing. Also, perhaps Dressage judges should be encouraged to give the Presentation mark at the beginning of the test as the Turnout enters the arena- First Impressions are usually the best and all that- then it's not just an afterthought at the end. | ||
| Phillip Reeves Member Username: Philreeves Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2010 |
To be honest I can't wait to move from novice to intermediate( it's Janet speaking by the way not phill) because of the standing presentation.I always thought that it should be about the safety aspect, if you're safe to drive with the correct fit of harness etc and not your colour scheme!Also if you have an extremely particular judge and you are kept there for 15 or 20 minutes then all the warming up you've done previously is lost!This leaves a quick 10 minutes before you enter the dressage arena. I personally think a harness safety check would be more appropriate for novices and then presentation on the move like the other classes. | ||
| Louise McCutcheon Member Username: Louisemcc Post Number: 8 Registered: 03-2007 |
Famously, I once got a 6 from a judge for presentation vehicle and full collar harness, with the comment "sorry, but a bit too orange". Chestnut horses to wood and tan leather upholstery carriage! It gave us all a good laugh!! But that 6 made the difference of an International qualifying score (or lack of) and rather changed our plans for the rest of the season. So, please, judges be aware. | ||
| Wendy Stromberg Member Username: Bressay Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007 |
I would like to see guidelines stating that if a judge feels the need to award a mark below 9 then some helpful comments should be made to help improve. With first and second places in the overall competition sometimes being separated by a fraction of a penalty, these marks can make the difference in the final placings. Without any comments how can a competitor improve in this section? | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2007 |
Presentation marks are the same as Dressage very subjective to the individual. At the nationals a few years ago i got 10, 10, and 5!! Personally i think it is time presantation marks were removed from the collective dressage marks. As regards plastic or leather harness Posh carriage or three phase it has always been that there should be no difference in the marks as money should have no bearing on fit cleanliness etc. You will never crack presentation!!! | ||
| Phillip Reeves Member Username: Philreeves Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2010 |
I did an experiment once which totally agrees your point! Brand new dressage carriage with leather harness and new outfits= 7,7 and 8, 3 phase carriage with synthetic harness( and not as clean as it should be I might add!) and was rewarded with 9,9 and 8! I, myself still have to do standing presentation, last time out got 4 10's and a 9! A point was lost because the judge said buckles could be cleaner when my groom had actually polished every individual buckle only 2 hours before!( it's synthetic with brass)oh well keep trying eh? | ||
| Diane Phillips Member Username: Dianephillips Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2010 |
Over the last few seasons Derrick has competed pair, firstly with Zilco harness and a 3 phase vehicle, then zilco with a presentation vehicle and finally this year purchased (albight second hand) a set of lovely leather breast collar harness. With the Zilco harness our average presentation mark was about an 8 with the occasional 9. Sandringham was the first time we used the leather and I was dismayed to only get a 7 from one of the judges and from memory not much better from the other two. The tandem turnout (3phase harness and vehicle) beautifully turned out received a 10 from the same judge........ The judge in question managed to stay "unbumped into" over the weekend so the question couldn't be asked. The leather harness had been in someones cupboard for two years and was a bit unloved so for Erddig I spent hours making sure it was up to scratch and polished each individual buckle etc and I got two 9's and a 10.(a 9 from the same judge who previously gave me a 7) Cracked it!! No, after the third clean where it shone, if I do say myself at Holker I was back to a 7,8 and one 9 (thank you that judge). The point of this lengthy thread is that the judges comment, as they should, all the way through the test but never actually say what they obviously don't like about our turnout. It could be something simple which we could fix or maybe something we can't and would have to live with. It would just be nice to know. My pride would never let me turnout my horses poorly but I do wonder sometimes why I bother. Speaking to a few other competitors, some have ditched the leather in favour of 'plastic' because of the extra work and no gain. |