Dressage Judges

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Author Message   Dot Willcoxson Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2007 - 12:27 pm:    Jane, it would seem I haven't made my explanation clear enough. As a judge, yes I agree there is more to judging a movement than just one thing. In my opinion there should have been a comment saying why 8 was not awarded for a 'good walk' which is what I do when confronted with such a situation. Let's hope the judges at the world pairs get it right!   Jane Wilson Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2007 - 9:54 am:    Dot, it's obviously impossible to comment here not having seen the test in question, but movement number 9 on the FEI 6a test is indeed just a walk, but as well as the quality of that walk, the movement is also judged on the transition to walk and the correctness of bend at the markers. It is possible therefore that the walk was good, but that perhaps the transition and the bend were not so good. This could lead to an 8-worthy walk losing marks possibly down to a 6. Jane Wilson   Dot Willcoxson Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2007 - 2:31 am:    I feel I should clarify the comment I made about a comment of 'good' being awarded a mark of 6. It happened in the FEI No 6A where movement 9 is walk only.   Douglas Strachan Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2007 - 3:38 pm:    More Ramblings of a Grumpy Old Man British Dressage Judges First and foremost I am most grateful to ALL the dressage judges who have spent many hours and expenses watching and marking my pitiful attempts at dressage ( My object was always to get round without the horn blowing and to do the test in the fastest time possible to shorten the agony). Without these volunteers we could not have our trials. Thank you. Reading the comments in the Forum I get the impression that there is a feeling that every thing that happens on the Continent is better and that we must follow. Critics also suggest that the foreign judges are much better than our U.K. judges. I am computer illiterate but the production of computerised dressage scoring results with their relative placings is most enlightening. From these placings one could perhaps interpret bias or inconsistencies. The fact that one judge marks harder than another does not matter provided their placings are consistent. Examination of the results in Single Pony at Denmark shows that the crème de la crème of foreign judges are not always consistent with their placings and are subject to human frailties. Competitor Range of Placing Judge 1 Judge 2 Judge 3 Judge 4 Judge 5 1 1-2 2 2 1 1 1 2 1-5 1 1 2 2 5 3 2-4 3 4 3 4 2 8 4-18 18 12 4 12 8 9 5-25 6 10 25 5 12 11 5-22 5 17 15 9 22 12 4-23 18 14 23 10 4 13 6-19 16 13 6 16 19 15 9-26 9 9 17 26 14 17 11-24 14 24 11 11 12 18 8-26 8 19 12 21 26 19 10-24 21 10 24 23 10 20 6-25 25 6 20 14 20 22 11-27 11 26 15 18 27 22 8-23 22 18 8 23 22 It would appear that as the competition progressed the judging in the Pairs did not show the same extent of scatter and in the Fours it was even better. As a comparison at the National Championships in 2006 in the Pony Single class there was one foreign judge and two U.K. judges and there would appear to be only one inconsistent placing Competitor Range of Placing Foreign Judge U.K. Judge U.K. Judge 1 1-2 1 2 1 3 1-4 4 5 1 5 3-10 10 3 10 8 5-9 7 9 5 Julie H suggests that 3 foreign judges should be used at future "selection " events but this would be enormously expensive. Would she accept that only those with international aspirations pay these costs or does Julie expect that these costs be spread across all other competitors at these events?. I endorse the BHDTA policy of having, at least, one foreign judge at any selection event. Competing Abroad I agree that experience competing abroad is excellent for those who can afford the money and the time but I disagree with Julie H that it should be compulsory for potential team members. It may be possible to pop over the Channel for those living south of the Thames but for those north of Hadrian's Wall it is at least another two days of travel. I also consider that ALL events to be used in determining future teams MUST be in this country as this encourages entries at U.K.events. The "British" Marathon Whilst on the topic of the influence of foreign aspects on our thinking I wish to defend the "British "marathon. I understand that the Continentals want to have only a 3-section marathon and will eventually want a 1-section marathon to suit their expensive dressage horses. I personally enjoyed the luxury of 5-section marathons through some fabulous country-side and am disappointed that the trend in the U.K. is now for 3-section marathons. (as an example I very much regretted the reduction of the Lowther marathon that used to go up onto the Fells and its magnificent views of Ullswater) Please, please let us keep the 5-section marathon where ever possible. Feedback Meeting of Pony Team Championships Julie H states that there will be a feed-back meeting on the Championships. At last October's Conference, I was advised that the "International " meeting was only for potential Team members and was not open to interested BHDTA members. Is the Feedback meeting to be held at the Nationals or at the Conference and is it a "closed" meeting restricted only to the Team and Officials.? Conclusion It has now stopped raining so I will refrain from opening a much larger topic on whether TRIALS should be predominately the MARATHON with dressage and cones or DRESSAGE with marathon and cones CDS 19.08.07   Dawn Emmerson Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2007 - 10:01 am:    [quote]One pet hate of mine though is when for example a judge says "good walk" and gives a mark of 6![/quote] I feel the same, a comment of good in dressage is an automatic 8 unless there was a reason to drop to a 7 or 6 or less. if the mark is dropped then it is correct to say why. Myself I don't mind getting what mark I get as long as it is followed by a comment that refects the mark. This helps to see where the error was and gives me a focus of where and what I need to work on to improve. Judges do there best and the sad thing is their best will always still upset the losers and please the winners. On the other side though I was shocked to see a judge tht I was sitting in with not judging correctly. The writer got all confused and mixed up the order of the comments to the marks, The judge instead of saying "I'll sort it later just carry on with the next mark", looked over and started discussing the sheet ignoring the driver doing the test. He missed a whole movement and so said "Oh just give a 5 they wouldn't have done better than that. He would also give a mark when only half a movemnet had been driven saying the same comment. This is not good practice and did surprise me as this judge is regulary judging at events. On the other side I don't agree with judges that judge pending on who is driving.. With judge training I think attending a training session once a year is pretty inadequte. In ridden dressage you have to attend several seminiars and training sessions each year to stay on the training list. You also have to sit in with judges several times a year and prior to taking your first training exam you have to judge two classes along side the main judge (your score sheets do not count to the test taking place) you keep your sheets, have your training card signed by the judge at C and obtain the collective scores. You then attend a mock exam before taking the actual exam. If you pass this you will then be given either level 6 or 5 judging status pendign on how good you were. this process seems a better way to attain a good level of judging status. I understand that ridden dressage is more involved in movements etc but maybe a better stucture for driven dressage could be adopted. I for one would be very interested in learning and taking part. I also understand this would take some organising but on the whole it may give a better standard and fairness of judging and help in better scores and training for all those involved. Just a thought.   Dot Willcoxson Posted on Saturday, 18 August, 2007 - 2:28 pm:    I agree with Jane (Pony Champs chat).We are having the same problems in Australia - drivers are moving up through the levels too quickly and on the strength of their marathon scores. There is also a similar problem with the level of dressage tests however this is currently being addressed. It is to be hoped that the new system will slow down the progression of drivers before their horse/pony is ready. We also have graded dressage comps where drivers can start with the most basic tests and gradually work their way up to the advanced level. For the drivers who take advantage of such activities, the improvement in their dressage is quite noticeable. Australia also has a good system of training judges and on the whole we don't have judges who 'judge a face not a pace' (of course human nature being what it is, sometimes one may slip through the net). Judges also have to attend refreshers at least once every three years. These can take the form of discussion groups or practical demonstrations. Judging can be very rewarding and on the whole our efforts are appreciated. After a number of years of judging and not driving, I now find I am very critical of my tests and with a couple of judges I can usually guess fairly accurately what my score will be. One pet hate of mine though is when for example a judge says "good walk" and gives a mark of 6!