| Author | Message | ||
     D Paffett |
In the first post I think the suggestion was to do away with the “novice qualifier” class not the “novice” class itself. At many events you seem to get two or three in one class and three or four in the other. Why not have only one novice class of seven or more? I disagree with previous posts that small classes are a desirable thing. They have “not very well supported” and “not much of a competition” written all over them. They say in years to come no one will ever know how many were in that class but you will, won’t you? Would I be right in thinking that the only difference between “club novice pony” class and “novice pony qualifier” class is the start fee? | ||
| Naomi Harbach |
Going back to the beginning of this post, I believe it is important to have a class structure, it gives you something to aim towards and a chance to move up the ranks and compete with people who are at the same level as you. If classes were to merge, it wouldn't be fair for intermediate drivers to compete against advanced drivers, and I think it would put people off and entries would be reduced. People want to be able to win a rosette and the current system allows people to achieve this. I have enjoyed working my way up through from novice to now open / advanced. I strongly disagree with scrapping the novice qualifiers, they are where our up and coming drivers begin and they should be encouraged and not put off by jumping straight from club to intermediate national. Maybe some sort of points system would be a good way to qualify for the championships but for a lot of people (myself included) are not able to do more than 4 national events due to work commitments. Maybe your best 3 or 4 scores should count? Please don't get rid of Section A...Janet is right, many horses need to do a good 8KM before the obstacles so they are drivable! Without this many horses would be too hot headed to drive the obstacles safely! I wonder if the criteria to move up the scale should now be reviewed from a different perspective. Currently the hardest class to qualify for could be the advanced class as you either have to win 2 events or win the championship to be able to move up, which is good. However to move up from novice to intermediate and then on to open you either have to win 2 competitions or finish in the top 50% of the championships. Maybe just the top 3 from the championships should move up or if you have won 3 or more events over 2 years? This way maybe classes would retain some of there entries as people wouldn't be moving up before they felt they were ready to. It would be a shame for people not to come to the championships for fear they would come in the top half and have to move up. This is just a thought.... I will be very interested to see what the outcome from this debate is....am sure you can not please everyone! | ||
| Audrey Barron |
I feel that if there was no Section A the sport of Horse Driving Trials would no longer exist and it could also lead to some nasty accidents with over excited horses/ponies if they were to go straight into Section E without a warm up section first. Part of the fun of the sport is the fitness programme before the start of the competitive season. | ||
| Janet Pilling |
"A good section A scores no points so it is not really required for the competition and it is slowly being discarded." - Sorry but you're wrong there - you can score penalty points by being too early or too late. IMO sec A is ESSENTIAL for the competition and the day it is discarded is the day we chuck HDTs!! There is no way that can be a healthy outlook and I for one (and Owen and probably many other drivers) would really struggle to contain my engine power in the obstacles with no decent sec A - we tried it recently at a club event and it was rather lively to say the least (and it took my pony much longer to recover!) If this is indeed the way things are looking we should stamp the idea out immediately. For the sake of our sport and the sake of our horses. I hear many people commenting on the beautiful sec As we are lucky enough to drive round and attaining the correct pace is all part of the challenge. (Maybe a new thread required for this one?) | ||
| Douglas Strachan |
Wendy If the Points Table was based on the number of entries/ starters in the classes your total for two events would have been 17. This would have placed you 5th in the Table and so you would have easily qualified for Windsor | ||
| Wendy Stromberg |
Yes, my words were twisted there! I enjoy going to all the Nationals and would do all of them if I was able. I also love competing in Windsor Park - a great venue. | ||
| D Paffett |
I don’t want to twist your words, Wendy, but you seem to be implying that the national competitions are not worth going to compared to the “big” competition at Windsor. Perhaps you mean that you would go to more of them if you could, but it does raise the interesting philosophical question of why people compete in the first place. A good section A scores no points so it is not really required for the competition and it is slowly being discarded. But if my people start competing at this level it will be principally for the section A’s at some of these wonderful venues. That's the way we want to spend our weekend. Hopefully the required pace will be slow enough that we get time to enjoy it and (heresy that it is) we have been to Windsor so it’s not on our “must do” list. Mixing business with pleasure? Hope so. But we wouldn’t want to get into a sport where there is only one competition a year worth going to. I'm not saying you are wrong - just that we are different. I hope the new rules can cater for both of us. Perhaps the national finals should be rotated round all the venues of the national qualifiers. Why not have one in Scotland? It must be their turn soon. | ||
| Wendy Stromberg |
I am one the those competititors that for various reasons have to chose to compete at 2 or 3 Nationals each year. During 2010 it was two. I won one and was second at the other - at Windsor I was second. If I have to attend 4 to qualify I wouldn't bother attending any. I enjoy Windsor and would not want to compete at a National if I wouldn't have the chance to qualify. | ||
| Douglas Strachan |
BHDTA Points Table 2010 Number of Events Entered In response to comments on my suggestion that a REVISED SCORING Points League should be used to determine Windsor Qualifiers, I looked at the existing Points Tables to establish how many competitors entered how many events. Unfortunately my lack of computer skills means that I can not include my table of number of events entered for each class in 2010.(eg It shows that 31 competitor entered one National /Regional event and 30 competitors entered one Regional/ Novice Qualifier in 2010. At the other end of the table one competitor entered eight National/Regional events ) The analysis reflects only the historic case which is based on the premise that competitors chased qualification according to the existing criteria. I accept that my initial suggestion that the 6 best scores would count is too demanding.( this is the present criteria for the Annual Awards) I therefore propose, that to qualify for Windsor the criteria from a “Revised” Points League would be For Novices the best two scores would count For Intermediate the best three scores would count For Open the best four scores would count | ||
| Mike Hodgson |
This is the same post as last time but with spelling corrected, sorry my English skills aren’t very good. Surely we should be looking at publicising our sport and encouraging more newcomers to our sport to raise entries rather than forcing the same people to go to as many nationals as possible to qualify. This would also make for more competition rather than the same 5 or 6 people competing at every national. Juniors can't have a different qualification system for the national championships the same way that women can't have a different qualification system as men. Why not change the rule - If only 1 or 2 in the class - the one higher placed, disregarding those already qualified, provided the driver's dressage score is 65 or less. To qualify for the national championships a driver’s dressage test must be less than 65 regardless of how many people are in the class. | ||
| Mike Hodgson |
surely we should be looking at publising are sport and encouraging more newcomers to are sport to raise entries rather than forcing the same people to go to as many nationals as posible to quilfey. this would also make for more compition rather than the same 5 or 6 people competing at every national. junior can't have a different quilfication system for the national championships the same way that women can't have a different quilfication system as men. why not change the rule - If only 1 or 2 in the class - the one higher placed, disregarding those already qualified, provided the driver's dressage score is 65 or less. too to quilfey for the national championships driver dressage test must be less then 65 regardless of how many people are in the clas. | ||
| Matt Were |
Ok so the points league thing doesn’t seem very popular with some folks although it would undoubtedly lead to more entries, I agree it would in its present form favour the people with more time and/or money on their hands (but isn’t that the case in all equestrian sports)? So the question is how to raise entries to the qualifiers but lower entries to the championships, not exactly an easy remit is it? Another angle could be to drop the 2 competitors qualifying from an event with more than x amount of competitors in it, that way if you have 10 national qualifiers your going to end up with no more than 10 entries for the championships. Obviously though this would only make it difficult to qualify in the more popular classes like open pony and open horse but it would still be just turn up to an event in august and you qualify for the less populated classes. In an ideal world the championships should be contested by the best drivers in their class that’s a no-brainer, but how do you sort out the best lets say 10 drivers from open horse? Is it by wins, points, dressage score, overall scores? If you are the BHDTA who is the better asset… the “gifted driver ” who goes to 1 qualifier and wins then goes to the championships and maybe wins again or the “ever-present driver ” who goes to 4 or more qualifiers and then the championships. The trouble is the BHDTA is not going to survive if it is just drivers of the first type; unfortunately this is a fact of life not just at national level but at club level too. The members need to support the BHDTA and their local clubs or the events won’t be there for any type of driver. So to me the BHDTA have to support the drivers who support them, they may or may not be the best drivers in their class but they are without doubt the life’s blood of the BHDTA without whom the beast would cease to exist. If you had a business making cakes is your best customer the chap who orders 1 cake a year that you really enjoy making but don’t make a great deal of profit from? Or is it the ordinary bloke who comes in everyday for his iced bun and your bread and butter? In an ideal world you would keep both happy but if push comes to shove? The indoors (I realise that it is only 8 hours on a Sunday) runs a points league for qualification and just to qualify for the championships is an achievement in itself and that’s how it should be for the outdoors too, somehow the outdoors has to bring some kudos to just getting to Windsor and with that kudos alas it also brings disappointment to the people who haven’t made it. Maybe instead of adding up your best 6 scores out of a maximum of 10 events you could add up your best 3 scores for a points league? Maybe the juniors could have their own qualification event or criteria. Maybe all the advanced drivers should automatically qualify for the championships. These are just my thoughts, ideas and views on an undoubtedly complex subject I don’t envy the decision makers and as the old saying goes you can’t please all of the people all of the time, especially if they’re carriage drivers :-) | ||
| Janet Pilling |
Julie if we weren't allowed on the stabling field at Nationals until 10am on the Thursday we probably wouldn't do very many! Travelling takes up a huge part of Wednesdays for us and we certainly don't come early to get the best spot. We need time to get four beasties and two turnouts set up and exercised after travelling for anything between four and ten hours, not an easy task. We certainly wouldn't be travelling through the night in order to get on site at 10am. So what might appear to make things easier for some would in fact make life more difficult for others. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns |
This might be getting away from things a bit but it does effect the class structures and entries. In the absance of large entries at national level I would like to see qualification for the championships changed. I think there should be a minimum dressage score plus qualification to 4th place only, however if we were to increase membership and therefore class sizes then qualification further down the placings could be introduced. I have spoken to several club drivers who are reluctant to make the leap from club to nationals due to time and cost. Time is always a tricky one but one thing I have noticed since I have been in the sport is the amount of drivers that turn up for an event on Wednesday, this in MHO is because as time has gone on resources have been cut (seemingly) i.e the amount of taps, parties etc. In order to redress the balance and in an effort to encourage people to make the leap from club to national we need to provide an attractive package to draw peole in, once entry nubers go up the revenue it generates will pay for more facilities, and people will not need to get to events early in order to get easy acess to water etc. We all have time issues but at the moment those who have to work for an employer are unable to have an equal chance at getting 'the best spot' so I would propose that NO ONE is allowed on the stable field before say 10am on a Thursday, this I would imagine would also save a few pennies for the event organisers. I would also like to propose the following price structure (or something similar) based on club entries being between £60 - £80. Novice @ a national = £80.00 Intermediate = £90 Open single = £100 Advanced single = £110 Open pairs = £140 (£10 class progression + £10 per additional animals, two inc spare) Tandems = £130 ( £10 class progression from adv single and one additional animal) Advanced pairs = £150 ( £10 class progression from open pairs but same number of animals) Teams = £180 ( £10 class progression plus two extra animals) By making each upward transition small people will be more inclined to progress up the levels and I think more people will make the leap from club to national so making classes bigger and qualification more of a goal. My suggestion would be that these are set charges per entry and are standard across the board and that we revert to animal registration ( at an affordable level) OR start fees remain the same. I am sure that if we provide better value for money and allow multiple entries per person we will increase numbers and encourage more entries, and on a final point I think ALL grooms should get ribbons as well as the drivers. We can't do the sport without them and many just do it for the fun of it. | ||
| Marilyn Harding |
I think what has been missed here is that the Nationals should be for the best drivers/horses, during that year, not as i said earlier just a natural progression at the end of the season. We have lost the the ultimate for singles - competing at Royal Windsor - so shouldn't our Nationals take its place. A points system has worked well however sorted, for Royal Windsor qualification, World selection, The seasons Champions, both at club levels and National so why not for National Champs !We cannot change the past, but the present has the ability to change the future, which is what we should do now. I hope the council take on board everybody's ideas and opinions and act on them thus saving and improving our sport for the future. ? Lowther fund anybody!!! | ||
| Jackie Ellis |
Perhaps as Marilyn says, in the old days competing was a challenge, you could go up the ranks like eventers do now; For us competitors now it is all dumbed down, yes, it is a challenge, but not nearly so much of one as having a horse fit enough for a 5 section marathon. Perhaps if clubs want to run harder events they should be encouraged too? .........& please dont penalise us poor souls that cant get to every event to try to qualify! Not every one taking part in our sport can afford the time or money to compete all season! It should not be an eletist sport please. We are trying to encourage entries, not limit qualification to someone that can chase points all over the place. | ||
| Janet Pilling |
I certainly wouldn't be happy with a points system for qualification to the Championships - if you win an event then you're entitled to be at the Championships, even if it's the only event you manage all season. I thought we were trying to encourage people to come to events? This is a very negative move IMO. I also think we should stick to the present points allocation - last year we debated this and it was agreed that if there are only three in a class competitors shouldn't be penalised for that low attendace. Likewise with Douglas's proposed scoring it would be likely that you could achieve more points with a 2nd or 3rd place at some events than a win at others. In the Adv Pony class, Tracey would still have won the League but myself and Sue Denney would have been 2nd= on six points (assuming 3 for a win in a class of three!) although I completed four events and came 2nd in three of them as opposed to Sue's three events with a win, 2nd and 3rd. Is this fair? No offence Sue ;). So in reality a minimum of six points for a win would have to apply which is where we were last year before it changed. I do agree that we should try to be a bit less influenced by the FEI formats - we are a British club with British competitors and surely training for 5-section marathons at home should mean that a 3-section International would be easier? | ||
| Patti Atkinson |
Two of the class winners at Windsor this year would not have been there if qualification had been on a points based system. There are also a number who were placed at the Championships that would not have qualified. | ||
| Marilyn Harding |
Those working that cannot get time out during the week eg Teachers, juniors, students,to get to Nationals will be able to qualify via the 2 day club events with a points system that they cannot do now. The National finals should be special and not just a formality of the season and be always something to aim for,but at the same time accessible to all who want to give it a go! There used to be a time when in the singles only 2 qualified down to 4th place and there were 30 in the class!so qualifying was very hard! | ||
| Patti Atkinson |
Mike makes a valid point about a qualification league not being 'fair'- not just for the young drivers but what about someone who (for whatever reason) cannot compete at more than a couple of nationals, wins both, but doesnt get the number of points needed? Qualification has to be on merit - you win you qualify. But how far down the placings (and with what dressage mark) should that qualification go? | ||
| Mike Hodgson |
points league systems for quilfying for windsor are going to push juniors and other people who havent got time to go to alot of nationals out. if the bhdta want to keep juniors involved in the sport when people are going of to university and to do exams then we need to be able to do one or two quilfying events inbetween exams. however the bhdta decide to change the system it needs to be sustainable and not just raise entries but to make sure than in 10 and 20 years time when the juniors are the seniors/adults that we are still there and that more people are coming into the sport. a point league system is going to make the sport a sport for people with plenty of time on there hands to go to every national | ||
| Douglas Strachan |
Class Structure ,Qualifications, Events Philosophy Let us consider how we arrived at the present arrangements I suggest that the BHDTA philosophy is based on the dogma “we need to play the FEI 3-stage competitions so that we are prepared for International competition” (as stated by Martyn in the Forum discussion on 5-stage marathons) Out of approximately 183 National competitors in the 2010 season, I would suggest that perhaps 20 may have realistic International aspirations . Why should this minority of 11% dictate the BHDTA philosophy to the rest of us? Surely the BHDTA’s priority should be to design OUR Driving Trials to reflect OUR needs and to encourage the grass roots of the Sport. (Not the tail wagging the dog or putting the cart before the horse !!! ) I would suggest that there are several topics to discuss at the October Conference Class Structure In the recent past, the BHDTA have introduced four categories in the Singles Class, Novice, Intermediate, Open and Advanced. I suggest this is one too many. Rather than sacrifice the Novice Class (as proposed) I suggest that the three classes should be Novice, Intermediate, and Open. For all other combinations I would suggest that there are only Open Classes. I understand that the BEF Funding has an allocation for International Training and this could be used for the11% International aspirants who would miss out on the “Advance Class” dressage. (I thank our Chairman who has fought hard for this BEF Funding as he must have spent many frustrating hours at many meetings to achieve the Grant) Revise Existing Scoring in Points Tables When there were over 10 entries in almost all classes the existing scoring gave a sensible reflection of worth. However, when the a competitor, in a class of only one, is awarded 10 points then the resulting tables are very distorted. I suggest that scoring should reflect the number of starters in a class. Eg in a class of eight the first gets 8 points and the last 1, in a class of fifteen the first would score 10 points and sixth 1 point. The best 6 results would determine the final total. Windsor Qualification The 2010 Windsor entry was approximately 130 out of a total of approximately 183 competitors in the season. I suggest that such a high “pass” rate devalued the kudos of qualifying. Such a high entry also placed great demands on the marathon stewards who were on location for almost 10 hours.(Fortunately the weather was reasonable) I suggest that the BHDTA limit the invitations to 100 at the most. To qualify for Windsor this would be determined from the Revised Points League. Using this method it should encourage drivers to enter more National events If there are 11 classes (assuming Tandems are one class) the top 9 competitors in the Points League would qualify for Windsor. | ||
| Marilyn Harding |
I am not sure how you came to the result there would only have been 36 competitors at the championship Cathy as without knowing all the results of everybody in the BHDTA and working out their points, both at club and national level it would be impossible to know. Perhaps my explanation is not clear. In the old days!! The nationals were graded with stars 2* being the easiest events up to 5* being the hardest with the ultimate being invited to compete at Lowther, these challenges are no longer available as all the Nationals seem of equal difficulty, so the challenges and achievements now reduced. Perhaps some restructuring of the nationals could come about, bringing back the 5 section marathons to some. To constantly cater for the Worlds in all the classes is what i have felt for a long time is killing the sport. Does anybody know what has happened to any money left in the Lowther Fund now that Lowther no longer exists. How much was left? and what can be do with the remaining amount? | ||
| Jane Smith |
I see from the front page of this website that the BHDTA are revising their planned re-structuring. It shows that it is worth debating, and not just accepting, a perceived "done deal". | ||
| Cathy Willis |
The present class structure works reasonably well. It could be tweaked, i.e not forcing competitors up from Novice and Intermediate classes - those who have finished in the top 50% of the national championship without winning a event. If there is a class above you, should progress if you have won 2 or more events. Lets go back to horse registration, and get rid of the start fee. I believe the start fee is the main reason competitors are not doing many National and Regional events. Perhaps qualification to the Championships should be down to 6th place, i.e no ribbon no qualifying place or on a points league placing, going by Marilyn view of 30 points to qualify there would have only been 36 competitors at the Championships this year. We should keep all the classes even if the numbers in them are small at the moment to provide progression. | ||
| James Lewis |
have just read Martin's comments and can't agree with them.l have the oct/nov BD schedule infront of me and there are some 270 competitions listed with up to 10 classes being run!interestingly British Eventing have had to cancel many of their unaffiliated events this year due to lack of interest,feedback being that they take as much preparation and expense as affliated events and everyone wants the most for their money these days. | ||
| Marilyn Harding |
British Dressage are introducing a new points system for qualification to their regional/nationals, which i think could work well for the BHDTA qualification to our Nationals. There could be say 30 points minimum necessary to obtain qualification for the Nationals at Windsor. With say the winner at all national qualifiers getting 10 points 2nd 8 points etc. At club events the winner would get only say 6 points, so would be able to qualify to get to the finals via club events but woiuld need to go to more in order to get the qualifying number of points! At the clubs those wishing to obtain points would need to be members of the BHDTA etc and go down as open entries those not interested in qualifications could enter as say regional entries. All would compete against each other,,in the same class, but each would gain their own placings, as per british dressage do now, this works really well. For the singles if one desired and had the time would be able to qualify more than one turnout! For multiples horse combination wouldn't matter until national final entry when the combinations would be stipulated as they are now I am not considering world qualifications here as i feel that is a completly different ball game and the advanced competitors are so few that they should have their own selection rules etc and not inplicate their special needs on the rest of the driving fraternity. I hope this makes some sense and you can understand what i am trying to explain!! | ||
| Martyn Willis |
Hmmm, Just a few thoughts on how this will need to to be implemented. 1. National Horse and Driver Grading 2. Horse Registration (BE currently Novice= £90pa Advanced £165) 3. Standard competition across all events including club events. 4. BHDTA to approve every event. 5. National membership scheme (BE = £130) over and above any club membership. (BE do not have affiliated clubs.) All the above is subsidised by Sport England through their grant for being an Olympic sport. Therefore the cost quoted above would be significantly higher for our sport. We will end up with a situation that Dressage has where the majority of events are run under their rules but are unaffiliated. | ||
| Julia Liles |
Jane, I am afraid, the Regionals had an 'identity crisis', and should not be confused with Affiliated 2DEs. Other than making a Novice Qualification for the Championships, there is no point for any other competitor to not do the adjoining club event. It is exactly the well run club events, that you mention, with their wider competitor base, that should be given the 'affiliated' National status. The BHDTA's task must be to make it both attractive for club events to affiliate, helping with Judges, Stewards, equipment etc; and club drivers to join, with flexible membership and tiered entry fees etc. Jeff | ||
| Patti Atkinson |
Its interesting that 20 years ago VERY few, if any, competitors went to national events on a Wed. Now it seems that most do! Cost is an issue. Time might be an issue for some but could seem to be less of an issue than it once was. Having Intermediate then Open at National events is just the same as having Novice then Open (as it used to be!) Advanced is still quite new and should be given longer to develope under the rules in place for 2010. Its strange that some comments on this thread seem to 'know' what the new structure is going to be - no automatic progression for example. Do some have 'insider information' or is it just speculation? Qualification to 4th place seems like a good idea - says me who qualified in 6th place at the last qualifier and was happy to go and loved every minute of it. After all - someone has to prop up the rest of the class! | ||
| Jane Wilson |
Interestingly Rita/Jeff, if you look at the numbers forward for the Regional events this year, all of which were two day events, organisers were hardly knocked over in the rush of drivers wanting to enter - something I think like an average of 13 or so competitors across the seven or so classes? In our club, this year we have had an average of 10.8 pre-novice drivers, 8.3 club novice drivers and 6 doing novice qualifiers. (Of these, three were non-members, drivers from outside our area). So, with club numbers reasonably healthy, why are so few interested in progressing to National level? I wish some of them would enter this debate so that we can find out - although as non-national, non-BHDTA members, they will probably not know of the existence of this forum! I'm not sure that witholding the chance to compete nationally until drivers are in the intermediate class is the answer. If we can't get them there as novices, are we more likely to do so when they're intermediates? An interesting conundrum! | ||
| Rita Bundock |
What Jeff is saying actually makes very good sense. It is a BE proven system, if it works for ridden events then there is no reason for it not to work for driven events. This could well be the way forward - What say you? What say you at the Conference in a few weeks time? It is time for change and this seems to be a gentle way of change that would suit all competitors regardless of depth of purse ot wallet. | ||
| Julia Liles |
Class and event structure may be another area we can look toward British Eventing's remarkable success in increasing membership. They took the opposite view to the BHDTA proposal and made their structure more inclusive. They introduced classes to absorb all levels of newcomers into high quality events. Their idea was to make the smoothest possible transitions for competitors, to ensure enrolment and retention. In the same way, British Eventing do, and we do to some extent already, we may have to use simpler and shorter Dressage tests and Cones courses for the lower divisions; and as BE exclude some elements of jumps and have smaller jump options, we may have to restrict some, or parts of, obstacles or the amount of gates to negotiate, but without reducing the atmosphere and kudos for newcomers and novices at a National event. Fundamental to the success of this class structure, would be the event structure. Incremental steps would be hugely assisted by two day National events, as BE has Affiliated 2DEs. An event season might consist of one 3DE each month, interpersed by one or two affiliated 2DEs. At present, whilst not being as prestigious, these must not be seen as 'second rate', and carry as much weight in qualifying for the Championships, having all the required criteria for the competition, other than the cones competition following the dressage; but ultimately, if numbers grew, it might be necessary to qualify for these premier 3DEs, via the affiliated events, as for the 'big four' ridden trials. These 2DEs would be more accessible and attractive to competitors needing to take time off work, or have school age children, and help change the age demographic of competitors, friends and families that generate the body of officials and supporters needed to run an event. They could also be an 'alternative' season for the less wealthy, and be a more exciting public spectacle run solely at the weekend, which should also make it easier for organisers to enlist helpers. 3DE venues could also be used, as now, for 2DEs, and the best venues used by clubs, could ensure a geographical balance. If the 2DE entry fees could be kept at two thirds of the cost of a 3DE, it would seem value for money and encourage that 'next step', even if initially the BHDTA must subsidise an event from reserves. There seems to be a general feeling that the investment at 'grass roots' may be more beneficial to our future than the current investments into international competition for the few. Jeff (an amalgem of views from some members) | ||
| Janet Pilling |
I agree strongly with a lot of what has been said - Emma, James, Wendy all make good points. I don't mind small classes - they will grow as people progress - however I don't think the Novice Qualifiers are the best road into National competition. I think drivers should be assessed at club level the way they are for all other classes, and then enter Intermediate classes and progress throughout the season. That way if they get to the Championships they will have gained experience throughout the season. This is the way I came into National Competition and I believe it must be much less daunting. I also think by the time a driver is contemplating Nationals they really shouldn't be described as Novices! I agree with Mike about the qualification for the Championships - it really shouldn't pass down the line regardless. There was a huge amount of competitors this year - great in one way but it takes up so much time to get through everyone and for us the marathon finishing so late meant a mad rush to get ready for the evening fun ;). I don't agree that small classes mean no competition - I have had great fun in the Advanced class and look forward to next season even though I still feel the red rosette is a distant dream. Lets not forget why the Advanced classes were created - the Open classes encourage drivers to improve and progress, I don't believe this was happening a few years ago and I know quite a few drivers who competed at Novice National level and never came back to Nationals as they didn't see the road forward. | ||
| Fiona Powell |
re. small ponies - please see note in Small Ponies discussion... we want more small pony drivers! | ||
| Emma Burton |
Mike, I meant small as in class size! I totally agree re small legged ponies. It's difficult to produce times and weights for such a big span of size, an 11hh pony must pull the same as a 14.2. A 14.3 must travel the same speed as a 16.2. But where do you stop? You proved yourself that with the correct fitness preparation a very small pony can beat the rest of us! | ||
| Mike Hodgson |
Emma i don't mean having a seperate class for small ponies because this would mean having an extrea class at the finals so wouldnt be reducing numbers. what i mean is enabling small ponies to compete in the normall classes (intermediate pony, open pony etc) will mean there will be more entries in the classes and there would be more people going for the quilfication places so windsor quilfication would be harder. is it fair that ponies 4 hands smaller than most other should go at the same speed? if we reduced each section speed by kph then it would enable more small ponies to compete at events. | ||
| Emma Burton |
Removing the novice qualifiers is a mistake in my book, there are so many people who become hooked via them you are limiting the new influx of future intermediate/open drivers. As has been said, you need a flow to keep any sport alive. Small classes don't bother me. The entry fees are not cheap, fuel, time off work, helpers all add to the costs. Why is having a class of three and having to give three rosettes out an issue? And a class of twenty with rosettes to 3rd encourages people to come again? Times change, and each season seems to throw up different class numbers. At the moment the open horse class is competitive and strong, with over ten entries at most nationals. Another 6 people have been pushed up to this class after Windsor, yet there is no forced progression to advanced so those new ones (myself included) that have never won a national are competing against those who have done far more. No, it doesn't encourage me to carry on doing nationals at all. I like the chance of winning a rosette, the intermediate class this year has been strong, enjoyable and competitive and we have done as many as work and children allow. I have to say that going out each time to make up the numbers is hard to justify. Competitive classes come from those filled with drivers of similar capabilities. Qualification is too easy, I agree. Wait til later in the season, have a decent round and you're there. But league tables? Not sure that will be fair either, especially for those who live in more remote areas. It may become a championships for those with most money and time available. No easy answer here, as all the discussions have shown. But I am sure that bigger classes and disappointed drivers is not going to be the answer to the dwidling entries. | ||
| Mike Hodgson |
if the quilfication system for windsor changes into a points league or you have to compete at a minimum of 3 or 4 nationals then you are going to push most of the juniors out. while juniors are at school and university we are not able to have time off to go and compete at 3 or 4 events, so need to be able to go to the odd event in the holidays to quilfy. if classes are to small why not introduce slower marathon times for small ponies. small ponies struggle to compete fairly at nationals becuase they cannot make walk times, there leggs are twice as small as the bigger ponies. if small ponies were able to compete fairly against the bigger ponies then maybe we would see more of them coming to nationals and we would then have more entries mike hodgson (junior and small pony driver) | ||
| James Broome |
Less Entries --> Less Events, which is bad for everyone. Small Classes --> Not great, but also not really the end of the world. At least with smaller classes more people get rosettes etc. Emalgamation is a good idea, but has it's limitations. My vote would be to welcome Novice, Intermediate, Open and Advanced competitors as firstly they are the future, and on a more short term scale, events need their money! In a progressive system, drivers will eventually be in a class against others that are better than they are. Folks, that's sport. You only up your game when you are up against better drivers so this should be embraced. | ||
| Wendy Stromberg |
My observation is that the system at present has a lot to offer drivers giving them new goals, taking smaller steps than in previous years so keeping up the feeling that the new goals are achievable without having to change your whole turnout. The main disadvantage has been removing all novice classes from Nationals. When novices qualify at a Regional and then have their first taste at Windsor, why do people wonder why they think Nationals are too big a step? Windsor obstacles are difficult - as they should be for a championship but chalk and cheese from a Club Regional. There are spectators and things going on that many horses have not had the chance to experience before a National Final. All very difficult and not encouraging. Many novices have told me that they did not enjoy driving the obstacles at Windsor - they felt they could not allow their novice horses to flow and were having to pull them around all the time. Well they have not met anything like it before. Another difficulty for many people now is that Schooling has changed and parents find difficulty taking children from school in term times. Also with the recession it is more difficult to take time off. Just doing two Nationals is six days of holiday. This means that many people are only able to compete at Club Level unless there is a variation in timings of Nationals - maybe trying to have at least three in school holidays. I do think that separating the 'professionals' into the advanced class has made a big difference to keeping competition alive below although I did note that one of the smallest classes at Windsor this year was the advanced single pony. But this happens - it is not a reason to suddenly change everything. Next year it might be a different class. Making National competitions something special to attend needs to be addressed. Competing at Sandringham with the country fair and the reception in the house was special. Now even the cross country was in the public woodland. We can do this at a club event. Holker Hall had the right idea - really make competitors feel they are attending a special event and how many will go again next year and recommend to others to go? Prizegiving at Nationals - don't rush - make it special even for those at the bottom of the class. After three days of competition it is terrible for those who have just missed out on a place not to be allowed into the arena. We all do it for a rosette not prize money and a feeling that we have had fun. Pushing people out at the last minute leaves them with a negative impression. After so many years I could write a book but I hope I have just added a few different points. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns |
I feel it would be a mistake to get rid of the novices, we need to be encouraging people and building our sport and support not cutting it off at the knees. I think we should return to novice classes at national events BUT with realistic entry fees.....starting at the bottom and increasing gradually with each step you take up the classes. If entries were more realistic we might encourage more people to enter. | ||
| Jackie Ellis |
My strongest opinion is that it would be a backward step to remove the Novice Qualifiers. I came through the ranks of getting my competence card signed off at three ( I think!!) club 2 day events, then was allowed to enter a novice class at National level. It was an exciting progression, & it helped educate my horse & i. I really think that was a system that worked, because we "progressed" slowly, but with great anticipation. Once allowed to compete at a National event it felt so exciting, but it also prepared us for the Championships as well. I think to take away Novice classes would take away the excitement for the next genaration of drivers. PS: Who in their right minds thinks that it is worthy to qualify for the Championships from a 5th place or lower?? | ||
| Jane Wilson |
I suspect the reasons for lower numbers of entries are many and varied, not the least of which being the credit crunch and the fact that most people are having to spread their disposable income more thinly. However, novice numbers have been thin on the ground for longer than the current credit crunch has been around! I thought it was a bad idea to banish the novice classes from such National events as they used to run at - it seemed like the Association was saying "you're not important and your opinion and entry don't count so if you're interested we might see you at Windsor". I think this may have led to those for whom driving is simply a hobby to abandon any wish to drive nationally and stick to club competition only. With many clubs now providing as good an event as some nationals, who could blame them? As to the class structure, I'm a big fan of the intermediate class which I think makes for a good and gradual progression to open level that I think most competitors who have come through the system have appreciated. It's still in its infancy and numberwise it will obviously take several years for the drivers coming through to even out in terms of class size. BUT, with no national novice competitors the flow will naturally be stemmed! Intermediates will progress on to open classes with few if any drivers coming in to fill the class from the other end. Despite the efforts of Cavewood Productions, carriage driving as we know it is still one of the best kept secrets in the equestrian world and if we want new members we have to do something about that. Clubs can play a vital role here, but the approach has to be holistic, nationwide and supported from above. Is there a "them and us" attitude between Club and National? I'm not sure but I do know that as the rules currently stand, a newcomer to driving cannot enter a National comepetition without coming through the club system. We need one another. With the loss of Lowther and the removal of the country fair from Sandringham, we've lost two very valuable shop windows. What can we do to replace them? A couple of years ago I conducted a little survey amongst drivers asking what got them interested in having a go. By far an away the biggest common denominator was that they had seen driving at one of those two events and decided they wanted to give it a try. A not very close second was that they had a friend who was already driving and got involved that way. I don't have any strong thoughts about the Advanced class, other than to note that those at the "bottom end" of the open class were probably glad to wave goodbye to those drivers percieved to always be winning, but were possibly reluctant themselves to be shoved up eventually. If this was a class meant for those desirous of representing their country internationally then qualifying dressage score of 65, 60 or even in my opinion 55 is far too lenient. I think 50 should be the cut off point which would leave a little more wriggle room for those left behind and a good standard to aim for should that be your wish. I don't think there is one easy answer to any of this and I'm heartily glad that the decisions are not mine to make! However, I suspect this will be an interesting thread! | ||
| Matt Were |
I too am against the class changes, why drop the novice class? Is it fair to expect a novice with in the main a novice horse or pony to start at Intermediate level with the associated much more difficult dressage test of one handed collected circles, extensions, etc. and the faster cones times? How is this going to increase entries? As it’s going to take another couple of seasons at club level to be of that standard. Why amalgamate 2 classes that had 23 competitors between them at Windsor. So now if you win an open class you don't have to go up to advanced and presumably if you’re in advanced you can opt to drop down to open for a bit of a raiding party! How exactly is this going to increase entries? Are people in the open classes really going to pay £100 more than the club event at the same venue and weekend to be up against last years National open champion and last years national advanced champion and last years advanced runners up because this is a very real scenario. As is a competitor at their very first national event next year could be up against 3 past national novice champions in the intermediate class. I agree that you need to cut down on the number of competitors qualifying for the championships but this can be done on a points league system. You can choose how many from each class qualify for instance the spectators want to see the teams and the advanced and open drivers so you can have more qualification spots for these as opposed to the novice and intermediate classes. Alternatively you could say that to qualify for the finals you must score for example 30 points or more. This way competitors can’t just turn up for the first time at the last event of the season and qualify in 6th, 7th or 8th place. If you want to go to the finals you will have to support the events throughout the year, now this will generate more entries and will add more kudos to actually getting to the finals. The current proposals in my opinion alienate us mere mortals and panda to the elite for it is the advanced drivers that now have two classes to choose from and the choice to stay in open and win again next year. And it has to be said that the majority of us need the 4 class structure to stand a chance of achieving a rosette and actually to keep us interested and motivated. Under the current proposals you could enter your first national (intermediate) in august 2011 qualify for the finals in 5th place then finish in the top half at the finals the following month and by April 2012 a mere 8 months later in your fledgling driving career be up against past and present national and even world champions. Now I know that that was how it was back in the old days but we have progressed since then otherwise we could all go back to using two-wheelers! This is only my opinion which is I know not based on many years in HDT but you must remember that the majority of the members are like me keen but obviously not up to the standards or knowledge of the more experienced drivers, after all the future of this sport and every other is always going to be in the new blood coming up through the ranks and these especially the young drivers should be encouraged not discouraged and disheartened by too big a leap. I for one have had a great time at the events and am looking forward to progressing through the 4 tier ranking system and if it aint broke don't fix it. | ||
| Ginny White |
Mike and Rita's messages possibly speak for many people, however like an AGM only those that are really interested will read this or attend. Preaching too the converted is what it's called. I feel the decision has already been made. Having been to Brighton for the first time this year to watch and support the novice qualifiers, was i alone in thinking how sad it was there scores where in the tent! not on the board. OK so we pay less money for an entry and only get to do 6 obstacles.It was said the board is not big enough. However we are allowed to qualify in the future, we will have to be quite thick skinned to survive and earn our place at the championship. Over 30 clubs in the country,and there where 11 novice horses and 13 novice ponies at Windsor, i can't see getting rid of 24 entries will make much difference to the event?.Intermediate entries will automatically qualify if what we read is true.Surely taking a leaf from the very successful book of Ihdt, where each club class winner gets invited to the championship, and let the open club winner get an entry to Windsor providing they become a Bhdta member, you may find some budding competition from drivers that won't try off there own back or think they good enough to come and rub shoulders with those at the top.Some times talent is about opportunity, money may be required but a lot of people compete on a budget with a lot of hard graft and self motivation. I for one am competitive but drive for fun,(and with my dressage scores will never get to Windsor!) over the years i have ridden at all riding club championships and seen my daughter do the same in pony club and riding club,having qualified at the regional events. Lets not remove the accolade of all the people that have achieved qualification at the BHDTA championship and that have or may represent their country doing a sport they love. Someone at the top MUST work a solution the Juniors and Novices may be future advanced drivers. And please remember the country is in a recession, and i am sure there are more people working to compete than not, a tank of fuel costs more than an entry how ridiculous is that!!. | ||
| Rita Bundock |
To organise an event, be it Club - Regional or National, is an expensive task. It will only be successful if the competitors are there. At the moment competitors are few on the ground at the higher levels of regional/national so some events are running on a very tight rope and some WILL drop off the calander. The time has come for change, perhaps even to for a few steps backwards. In my view to get rid of novice classes is just not on. Novices are the future - we must not forget this. If HDT's are to continue these classes MUST be encouraged not dismissed. Club events are great and give a great deal of confidence and experience, but they do not have the resources to put on an event to National standards so therefore the National level of events is a very big shock. Many competitors are finding National/regional HDT just too expensive. Fuel/distance is of great concern - large expense - Entry fees are not getting any less due to increased costs of the event. Then there is the dreaded start fee and the BHDTA membership. If only one or two HDT's are done this makes each one very expensive indeed. So what is the answer? Classes need to be amalgamated as Mike suggests, if entries do not make a good size of class. Reduce the number of classes, dividing the open into two classes has reduced the numbers in each class. In theory it is good but in practise it just reduces the class size and qualification for the Championship is there for the taking of all competitors. Novice - Open & Advanced singles with Multiples divided as entries warrant, Horse-pony pair - perhaps tandem & team could run together. Marathon times could still be the same as present. We MUST save our sport - the way it is going now it will only be for those who can afford the high prices or have sponsorship. Having been Secretary of both Brighton & Normanhurst for many years and now seeing them both disappear from the calander, mostly due to lack of entries and help, is heartbreaking. As Organisers of National/Regional events we tried many different ways to increase entries but in the end there was no future for either event which is very sad. How many more will go the same way? It is now up to the BHDTA Council to follow the wishes of the membership and keep our sport alive and flourishing, but most of all remember the grass roots of the sport and that is the up and coming competitor - THE NOVICE. Qualification could be down to fourth and no further - with at least three in the class, less than that it is not a qualifying class. This would reduce the number of potential competitors at the Championship and less of a headache for the organisers. The time for change has come. | ||
| Jane Smith |
With regards to Regional events, why not amalgamate classes so that those who wish to qualify for the Championships and those that don't compete together. This would increase class size and make for better competition. It might also make those who hadn't previously considered the Championships to be an attainable goal reconsider their capabilities and their desire to drive at National level. Please let's not lose the Novice class. It's a huge achievement to garner your nerve to compete at "big school" and one from which we can only gain confidence. | ||
| Mike Watts |
Can we have a debate about possible changes to the class structure? There is still time ... The prime aim of the BHDTA is to improve the quality and quantity of participation in hdt, at all levels. I think it helps to keep this in mind. There are some issues which may need attention: - low numbers in national events - some very small classes - too many entries at Windsor (about 110 entries is the maximum reasonable for volunteers to cover the marathon) A proposal has been put to try to increase numbers by scrapping novice qualifiers and letting people do nationals once they have a competence card signed. What do people think? I suggest novice qualifiers are well known and understood, something people aim for and should be kept. Dropping the current system could simply lower the standard of nationals, so reduce prestige and thus reduce numbers, the opposite of what we want. However, we should run some of the novice qualifiers at nationals, so people can experience bigger events before the novice championship at Windsor – and we should also minimise any extra requirements on clubs who run novice qualifiers. Small classes give not very exciting competition, so people may even drop out. We could merge classes wherever a class has two or fewer (or if only one?). Possible mergings of small classes could be; horse and pony of the same class [keep horse and pony times], e.g. tandem, or merge Intermediate and Open, or Open and Advanced whichever are too small – but individuals still do their own class’s dressage test. This may be untenable – should we just keep classes of one or two, or should we merge? Another way to help avoid small classes could be to scrap Intermediate – remerge it with Open? Having Intermediate does offer a more gradual progression, specifically of dressage test, but we probably have too many classes. Too many entries at Windsor – means it’s not so special and too hard for marathon stewards. It’s difficult to spread the marathon over two days – that means getting in stewards twice/two lots. Is it OK to aim for a maximum of 110/100 entries? To set the Windsor entry numbers we could slightly raise the barrier to qualification. Possibilities include; - Qualify only down to 4th place - To qualify, must achieve total score not more than say 150% of winner in the class. - To qualify, must do certain number of events – at least two/three/four regional or nationals? - Nationals count for two? - Change to a points league system; best 3 (4?) scores to count. This encourages more participation but may be complex to work out, and need adjusting for regions with few events. Works for ihdt. How do we encourage more entries in nationals and regionals? Can we, should we, scrap the start fee (covering the cost by economise or other funding)? Do regionals make sense? It looks very strange to me to have a club event with a very few people who’ve paid an extra fee labelled ‘regional’. If we keep regionals can we – scrap the start fee? Everyone who takes part is in a regional – no extra cost. Accept events from any club who’ve shown their ability to run a good event and undertake to run the competitions to the BHDTA rules – do not require national officials – economics tells us reduced supply means increased cost. Choose regionals to give a sensible geographic and time spread of events. There is still time to affect the decisions, but they are needed very soon for planning next year's events.... please comment! These are my personal views and or ideas for debate, not those of the council or any committee |