| Author | Message | ||
     Frances Collings Member Username: Victory Post Number: 91 Registered: 03-2007 |
We went to Joe Pullen's dinner dance and had a fantastic evening you have brought back memories from long ago!! | ||
| David Titmuss Member Username: Treasurer Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2013 |
Mr Savage, This thread has now gone on for some time, as far as I can gather your views have no support. To date you have not carried out your intention to become a member of BC by the end of January 2014. I have stated clearly the current position regarding BC and the Trustees of the SDF. I shall enter into no further correspondence unless you reveal your identity and interest in this matter. Should you choose to continue to act in this manner I will take steps to make this forum unavailable to you. I remain available to you by telephone or email. Sincerely, David Titmuss | ||
| Andi Rutledge Member Username: Rutters Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2007 |
not anything i can add to martyns ,janes mikes comments etc ...except to say ....dont mend what aint broken ... | ||
| Martyn Willis Member Username: Martynw Post Number: 63 Registered: 02-2007 |
Having been a member of the BHDTA since its split from the BHS, being a past Council member and knowing first hand the effort and time put in by Council members, I for one was greatful and still am for those who have stepped up to be a trustee of the fund whilst I was on council. Knowing the trustees I have every respect for their integrity. The fact that there is still some £85k in the fund to me is testomy to their good stewardship. Mr Savage you are obviously troubled by the management of this fund. What would you do with it? | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 58 Registered: 06-2007 |
I'm rather puzzled as to why Mr. Savage has started this debate and why there are some inconsistencies arising. First of all he stated that the money in question was raised by Joe Pullen and now he saying it's member's money, put to one side to save us from the BHS. Regardless of these details, I don't understand Mr. Savage exactly what you think the trust fund is at risk from and just what these "pet projects" are that you suggest the trustees may be involved in? I for one am happy that there is a degree of separation between the trust fund and BC Council - surely they have enough to do with the day to day running of the sport? Especially as they do it on a voluntary basis with precious little reward! Also, it seems to me that the trustees have an excellent connection and relationship with Council even though they no longer serve on it and as a long-term supporter of carriage driving, I have no qualms whatsoever about the current status quo. What exactly is it that you're afraid of? And why raise this now? It seems very 'out of the blue' to me, coming from someone who doesn't appear to have had any recogniseable input into the sport as far as I can tell? I would of course be happy to be corrected on that point but in the meantime I'm with David Titmuss and Mike Brown on this one. | ||
| Mr david Savage Member Username: Dave_savage Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2013 |
Dear Michael Thank you for you contribution, I know bringing up this subject is not a popularity contest . What you don’t seem to understand is, why the money was put in trust in the first place. Combined Carriage Driving as it was known then, was part of the British Horse Society which was a charity, if there was any over spend in running our sport the B.H.S. would fill the short fall, but if there was any surplus then the B.H.S. would keep the money. At this point, Combined Carriage Driving decided to break away from the B.H.S. and the amount of surplus at that time was approximately £90k, which was put into a trust fund, this action was taken to protect the funds from B.H.S and no other reason . The trustees were then appointed by the committee, the Chairman, C.E.O. and other members of the committee. The new trustees were all members of the committee directly answerable to the members by the ballot box, That’s why you are wrong when you say whole point of setting up a trust fund is specifically to allow some separation and therefore protect the fund from the day to day running of the organisation. All the original trustees were members the B.H.D.T.A. committee When the trust was set up there was no separation, it was all one and as the committee members retired they should have surrendered the trust to other existing committee members. £87ooo.oo is a substantial amount of money, B.C. are now in a position where they have no control over the money in the fund. B.C. needs to protect the fund on behalf of its members. We now know that when the trust fund was first set up our chair at the time was Mrs Barron and she was chosen as a trustee, what we don’t know is how many of the succession of chairman have been appointed trustees and if they have why isn’t our present chairman a trustee. What wicked and evil things are we trying to protect the funds from, this is not Harry Potter or some off shore Asset Management Company this is the new British Carriagedriving. All our committee and C.E.O are very trustworthy up standing members with there finger on the pulse of the sport, why cant they be in charge of the fund, just like when the trust was first set up Even our treasurer David Titmus cannot answer all the questions I put to him BELOW ARE THE FACTS GLEANED FROM THE DEBATE SO FAR They is £85,772.16 in the fund. The money originally belonged to B,C members. B.C. has no control over this money what so ever. There are no itemised details of how the money is spent, given or granted. The Trustees are not appointed by our Committee. The Committee are not informed before the money is spent, It is not clear that the money is being granted to promote the sport or just give to the trustees pet projects Should the Trustee declare an interest when some of the trust fund is awarded to there local driving club or an event they are personally involved in organizing. Again we don’t have any information The trust fund does not form part of the assets of British Carriagedriving and is not included in it's accounts. | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 13 Registered: 09-2008 |
Mr Savage, Is it really too difficult a concept to understand that the whole point of setting up a trust fund is specifically to allow some separation and therefore protect the fund from the day to day running of the organisation. As you will see from the replies on this topic, everyone else who has taken the time to reply is in agreement that the current arrangements are above board and acceptable to them. This leads to the conclusion that perhaps you have some personal axe to grind and perhaps this would be better off sorted out directly with those involved. Regardless, might I suggest that you cease your accusations and sniping and leave us in peace. Regards, Mike | ||
| David Titmuss Member Username: Treasurer Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2013 |
Dear Mr Savage, Shyness is not one of the personal attributes of which I am often accused. I will try to tackle the points which you raise. The purpose in suggesting an approach through official channels is not a ploy towards secrecy, but rather that official approaches will always be brought up at Council meetings whereas there is not the same compunction with forum postings. Perhaps part of the answer to your fears lies in the name "TRUSTee" and the implied element of trust. The title trustee has a legal status and should there ever be doubts about the running of a trust, then there are remedies at law. The trustees do not consult Council with regard to expenditure, quite the reverse, as it is more likely that Council would approach the trust for some funding from time to time. It is important that the trustees are persons with financial acumen and long term experience within the sport and that there is some long term stability within the trustees whereas Council members are only elected for a period of 3 years. On the subject of conflict of interest, should I or any other member of Council serve as a trustee then it would be practically impossible for BC to approach the fund without creating a conflict of interest. The trust fund does not form part of the assets of British Carriagedriving and is not included in it's accounts, although details are made fully available to members, precisely for the purpose of keeping the money safe and I would not support any action to change the status quo. Maybe I shall have the pleasure of meeting you at some event in the future. Regards David | ||
| Mr david Savage Member Username: Dave_savage Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2013 |
The trustees were appointed because they were members of the B.H.D.T.A committee, You cant vote the trustees off the trust fund, but they can surrender the trust to the elected committee. The money belongs to British Carriagedriving members and that is why the trustees should be elected members of the committee. You could be right, presently the trustees can do what they want with the money and they are not answerable to the committee or the members. The fact is we don’t know, but as the topic continues the truth will come out. Currently there is £85,772.16 in the fund, this a huge amount of money to have No control over. Mr Titmus you seem to have gone a bit shy on the subject, here are the 4 question I wondered if you could be so kind as to try and answer them, no one is trying to trip you up, just get a bit of clarity on the mater. .Were the Trustees elected by our Committee or self appointed. .Are there itemised details of how the money is spent, given or granted .Is permission first sort from the Committee before the money is spent or are they just informed by the Trustees afterwards? .Are the grants being given to promote the sport or just given to the trustees pet projects. .If a trustee is involved in organising a competition or is involved in a driving club that is receiving a grant, is an interest declared to the B.C. Committee. . | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 49 Registered: 07-2011 |
Hello, I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding here. I’ve been waiting for one of the legal people to tackle this one but they seem to be otherwise engaged. So I thought I would have a go. Mrs Baron pointed out that the money was transferred to a trust fund. It is therefore not under the ownership or control of BC and will not appear on the BC balance sheet. The duties of the trustees will be set out in the trust deed. If the trust deed does not specify it then BC has no jurisdiction whatsoever over the trustees or the money. So the accountability issue is not a “grey area” at all. The trustees are obliged to do what the trust deed tells them. The points you made are so fundamentally flawed by the assumption that this is BC money that the correct answer would be “not applicable” to all of them. I’m happy to go through them one by one if you still think there is a need. I hope this makes sense. Clearly, the people who set up the fund did not want it to come under the control of BC or BDS or individual clubs or whomever was around at the time. I expect that the way the fund is run means that BC do have a big input on how the money is spent but please be clear that legally it is not BC money. The trustees were appointed because they are trustworthy. | ||
| Mr david Savage Member Username: Dave_savage Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2013 |
Dear Mr Titmus First of all I will be a full member of the BC on the end of January 2014. Thank you for your reply, which I respect from a man who is an elected member of the B.C. Committee and Treasurer, just the type of person that should be a Trustee of this fund. Do you have no faith or trust in your committee colleagues to manage this trust fund. I presume that the present Trustees were given there position when they were elected members, serving on the Committee. The first part of the process seems to be democratic and worked out well when the trust was set up, but has now gone off the tracks. .Were the Trustees elected by our Committee or self appointed. .Are there itemised details of how the money is spent, given or granted .Is permission first sort from the Committee before the money is spent or are they just informed by the Trustees afterwards? . Are the grants being given to promote the sport or just given to the trustees pet projects. .If a trustee is involved in organising a competition or is involved in a driving club that is receiving a grant, is an interest declared to the B.C. Committee. I repeat, No one is questioning credibility or the reputation of the trustees just there accountability. Well Mrs Nix BC have been up front about its accounts, but this a grey area that needs debate ,As you can see from the replies that Mrs Baron and Mr Titmuss might want direct contact and the discussion taken forward in private or behind closed doors, who’s interest would this be in. B.C have no control what so ever over this trust fund and that’s why the fund should be surrendered to the B.C. committee who act behalf of its members, this would also make them directly accountable. There isn’t one member of the B.C. Committee acting as trustee on this trust fund This is appalling. | ||
| Wendy Nix Member Username: Wendyp Post Number: 47 Registered: 07-2007 |
Well said Mr Titmuss! Might I suggest that the moderator be requested to direct any comments such as those instigated by Mr Savage straight to the BC Treasurer rather than be posted to the Forum - particularly when the post is made by a non-member? Thankfully, in this case, any mis-interpretation of Mr Savage's comments have been allayed. BC is, and always has been, up-front and open about its accounts(since I've been a member anyway) and, like others on this thread, would like to say a public thank-you to all who look after our interests in their own time and often at their own expense. | ||
| David Titmuss Member Username: Treasurer Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2013 |
Those who know me will know that I do not usually post on the forum where details would be available to non-members, however, on this point I will comment that the trustees of the Special Development Fund are people I respect and trust and with whom I am in frequent contact. BC council are fully aware of the situation with the SDF and are happy with the arrangements that exist. I would ask that Mr Savage declare his interest as he is not a current member of BC. Should any members of BC have any specific queries regarding finance, I am happy to respond to email or telephone requests directly to the member. | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 56 Registered: 06-2007 |
Now look what you've done - you've woken the Douglas! However, I must thank him for his (very) early morning call to inform me of the error in my assumption that training grants come from the fund being discussed here. I humbly apologise for my misinformation, but stand by my opinion that that said fund is being administered in an excellent way. | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 16 Registered: 06-2007 |
I have followed the Annual Report of the Trust Funds for quite a few years and endorse completely the comments of Patti and Louise. The management of the Funds is to be commended for their judicial distribution of monies to benefit the Sport. The Trust has maintained a constant balance around £85k. This should be compared to the Reserves of BC (BHDTA) which were £110,556 at 31 December 2009. This decreased 2010 = £84,836, 2011 = £53,640, to 2012 = £47,701. A major element of this loss of £62,855 was the Marketing Project. Need I say more? | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 55 Registered: 06-2007 |
As training officer for the NEDTL, our club has twice benefited from a training grant from, I presume, this very fund. This has allowed us to provide quality support and training for our members old and new, encourage newcomers into the sport, to find their feet once they get there and hopefully smooth their eventual progression into National events. It has provided an opportunity for our more experienced drivers to hone their skills which they can then in turn pass on to our club novices. From my standpoint, the fund is being controlled and administered in fine style - long may it continue! | ||
| Louise McCutcheon Member Username: Louisemcc Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2007 |
Completely agree with Patti. Jill, Prilly and Derek are very much part of the PRESENT and FUTURE of BC. They work very hard at supporting our events and our members. Current Council members are too involved with the day to day running to maintain an independent aspect of the bigger picture. Leave well alone. And lets be very grateful that people like the current trustees are prepared to give their time so freely. | ||
| Patti Atkinson Member Username: Pattia Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2007 |
Interesting position David but I feel completely the opposite. The trustees are protected from the day to day pressures that the council face. The funds administered by these very reputable and experienced BC members, with full accountability to Council, are in very safe hands. | ||
| Mr david Savage Member Username: Dave_savage Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2013 |
I am not saying there is any impropriety, just zero accountability to the members. As you say the Trustees are past Executive Officer, past Director and past Chairman. The PAST No Trustees have been elected by the members. The past has gone, this sport must look to the future It is time that the Trustees surrendered the trust fund to the democratically elected members of the committee who act directly for the members. The Present Executive Officer, The Present Chairman and a Present Director THE PRESENT AND FUTURE OF THE SPORT After all, the running of the sport is there responsibility not yours. Its Time To Move Forward | ||
| Prilly Baron Member Username: Prillyb Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2013 |
The Special Development Fund, as it is called, was set up in the early 80's by Joe Moore and Frank Haydon. Subsequent to that Joe Pullen arranged a dinner that raised something in the order of £20,000 to add to the funds. This and other money that has been donated over the years is held under a Trust Deed and is administered by trustees who are long standing members of the BHDTA, now BC. The current Trustees are: Jill Holah (past Director and Executive Officer), Derek Mayes, (past Director and Treasurer) and myself, (past Director and Chairman). The purpose of the Fund as described in the trust deed is "To promote the development of the sport of Horse Driving Trials". Currently there is £85,772.16 in the fund. Applications are welcomed for grants or loans for "the development of the sport". Over the years Grants have been given for training at National level and to affiliated clubs. Loans have been given for obstacles or start up funds at new national events and affiliated clubs for capital projects. All of which have been repaid. The accounts for the Fund are published each year and circulated at BC's AGM. If you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact me or any of the trustees. | ||
| Mr david Savage Member Username: Dave_savage Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2013 |
About 20 years ago Joe Pullen raised about £90k for B.H.D.T.A, At the time our sport was breaking away from B.H.S. and to keep the money safe it was put into a fund, This was a reserve that could be used for emergencies This fund belongs to the members and through our elected committee they should decide where the fund is spent Question .Are there any B.C. committee members controlling this fund and if not? why. .Are there any accounts or figures supplied to B.C. .Does any one know how much money is presently in the fund .Who is in charge of the fund |