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Matt Were
| | Posted on Wednesday, 16 September, 2009 - 3:23 pm: | |
As a novice horse driver with a novice horse I would have no qualms in driving against a novice driver with an open horse but i would not like it the other way around.
I qualified for the championships but alas could not go as my horse was not right, however I did watch on friday and Saturday and took special note of the novice horse class. Sonny drove a great dressage test and drove the obstacles beautifully and sympathetically to his horse. In my opinion he was a worthy winner and its a crying shame that people are trying to take the shine off his championship win.
I also saw Sonny drive at the indoor finals where he came second in the open horse class to the eventual supreme champion this time driving his own horse so I doubt very much if the result would be any different had his horse been fit.
Just for the record I have only spoken to sonny briefly twice so I am not defending a good friend.
And as for Roger he too drove beautifully and was a deserved winner, having won novice horse championships indoors and out and the indoor intermediate title with his own horse I dont think it was a shock that he has taken the outdoor title.
Both these drivers competed within the rules and were worthy winners and should be congratulated and commended for the hard work and dedication that goes into qualifying for and winning a national title. |
Patti Atkinson
| | Posted on Wednesday, 16 September, 2009 - 11:26 am: | |
Some of these new (sometimes, but not allways, young) drivers are scarey they are so good.
Long may we be a sport that encourages new people to join at whatever level of age and experience.
We watched all the Novice and Intermediate drivers round some of the hazards at Windsor and most of the driving was awesome. Very few made mistakes although some were obviously better drivers than others. Good training was very evident.
The 'two wins and you move up' rule needs a tweak because you may be lucky enough to win at your first two events at National, at Intermediate or at Open. If this is in your first season at that level with that horse then perhaps you could remain for a further season in that class.
I dont think that a 'grading the horse' system can work in practice and I would be happy to go HC if necessary for my horse to gain the relevant experience. |
Janet Pilling
| | Posted on Wednesday, 16 September, 2009 - 9:29 am: | |
I was happy to see the two young drivers getting the opportunity to compete at the Nationals in spite of them both having problems with their own (and most likely, preferred) horses - they did a great job! It is a bit annoying when younger drivers appear with experienced horses and beat you ;) but I still love to see the young drivers climbing up the ranks every season - long may it continue for they ARE the future of this sport. Thankfully we seem to be doing something right for them as there are more and more appearing every season. |
Wendy Stromberg
| | Posted on Wednesday, 16 September, 2009 - 8:24 am: | |
Some more thoughts for the mix! Our sport is not just a progression of horses through single classes. We have a great mix of multiples. If we change the rules to qualify horses instead of drivers it would be an impossible task for drivers to progress each horse of a team through novice single classes.
It would also put a lot of work on Clubs to keep records of each horse and who has driven it!
What about the novices who buy an advanced horse would it be sensible for them to straight away compete in the advanced class?
Would it mean novices would only then be allowed to drive novice horses?
This question has been discussed for years and we cannot compare our sport to ridden classes. It is difficult with such a mix to have a rule to please everyone and I think that with the new changes to split classes that we have a good, if not perfect system now. Open drivers do have the opportunity of competing in the Intermediate Class if they wish.
Lets leave the Novice Classes to those who are entering our sport with all sorts of animals and lots of enthusiasm. Let them have the opportunity of winning the rosettes (thats all we all work for). |
Julie Hoskyns
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 10:38 pm: | |
Picking up on the original post by Brian Cairns, I think he has a valid point and in my humble opinion I feel it would be better if some rules were relaxed to allow open drivers to drive their novice animals in a class appropriate for the animal’s level of training. This can only be achieved if open drivers are allowed to drive their horses/ponies in a novice class (there could be some handicapping system as suggested earlier by Rosemarie Neale so the novice driver doesn’t suffer).Although we can all use the clubs for this, at some stage the anti needs to be raised and they need a sound basis for steady progression from club to national novice, intermediate/open/advanced/international level. I believe that as an organisation we encourage drivers to push youngsters too quickly, this manifests itself in tense animals in the dressage, a higher turnover of animals or a shorter successful career.
It is my belief that all competitors should be able to drive a novice animal at the level its training dictates without undue competitive pressure (asking a novice in a multiple to do extension to collection or extension to halt as an example). We are the only horse sport who rates the driver and not the horse; we are also the only equestrian sport that does not allow you to compete in more than one class.
I fully understand that the FEI do not allow this however we are able to make our own rules for our national competitions. For those who have more than one single or a multiple driver who has a new animal it would be helpful if they could drive competitively in two classes. This would enable novices to be brought on slowly and in the case of single drivers it would help to keep them in the national competitions instead of taking a break for a period to bring something else on. The cycle could be seamless. I also feel it is unfair to charge the full entry fee to an H/C competitor when there is no prize money involved, after all we are only competing for a rosette which has a minimal value. I know it will be said that it gives the driver an unfair advantage but each animal is different, is driven in a slightly different way and the eventers and show jumpers don't seem to have any great advantage over a course on their second, third or fourth horse. The events could also benefit from the increased revenue although I am not sure many could afford to go round twice too often. I also believe that grooms should be allowed to drive and trainers who compete should be allowed to go round with their pupils/groom in a competitive arena without penalty. I think the benefits would out weigh the disadvantages and the results could be far reaching for our International teams.
Maybe it is time we looked at British Dressage and based our grading on points as they do, and maybe animals should not be allowed to progress to the next level until they have gained enough points.
And finally I think the best way a novice driver can progress and learn is by driving an experienced horse, known elsewhere as a schoolmaster. I think it should be encouraged especially if they are our future as Angela pointed out.
Just to make it clear I am not in a position to go round more than once. |
Duncan Seth-Smith
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 10:21 pm: | |
This is a question that has been around in my mind for some time, and I have 2 views. In the case of the BHDTA events I agree with Angela F that we should encourage young drivers, I wish I was one. Equestrian events have always had [correct me if I am wrong] the rider as the class entrant as opposed to the equine. You would not accept Boyd E or Gary D in a novice class even when driving an inexperienced equine. [this is where I duck down to avoid attack]I believe that if we [GB] want to compete at an international level we need to up the game.
However,in the Indoor Driving Trials it was started as a great way to take any pony or horse from your paddock and compete during the winter. This was and does encourage newcomers to get a taste of our sport, and I believe that it should still be the whip that determines the class. Again we know that people hold back from moving into open class by not attending the finals. This may be because they have a young animal that needs more experience or costs or any other reason.But the point about the IHDT is that any breed of equine can make the finals, but the spirit is lost when high quality equines are borrowed, hired or loaned for the finals.
I was totally disillusioned when I first found out that other competitors were using quality animals borrowed from other people. When IHDT get back to the basic idea of using the animal you qualified with for the finals I will be happier.If an athelete has an injury before their finals they cannot ask a substitute to compete for them so why is our sport any different?
Teams having extra horses they can swap depending on the dressage / marathon phase is a different discussion which I have no views on.
In summary lets accept that the whip determines the class and unfortunately or fortunately any horse can be bought in to increase the chance of a win, how else will we compete against europe and the world, but let's keep that to BHDTA and keep IHDT events to the qualified equine and not some ringer bought in.
(step off soap box and leave the stage) |
Marilyn Harding
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 10:19 pm: | |
The ruling about being the Driver who qualifies for the Championships, not the horse was brought in some 12 years ago to clarify the then confused ruling, specifically concerning the singles classes. It would be impossible to stipulate a turnout qualification only as this would be grossely unfair involving the pairs tandems and teams, so why should the singles only be penalised, to a turnout qualification. One may be driving a really experienced horse (pony), but the animal still has to be driven!!
Again regards Novice animals in Open classes this is an old grumble, time and time we have been told this in our sport is too difficult and too expensive to police correctly, the answer given has always been this is one area Club Competitions are for, to give young inexperienced animals the experience needed before entering Nationals. Again this really only applies to singles as the multiples have more experienced animals to teach the youngsters.
If newer drivers have any ideas to change the commitee thinking then please write to them!! |
Angela FLANAGAN
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 8:42 pm: | |
As MY horse was one of those in question being driven by the now Novice Horse Champion I feel I should respond!
The drivers' own horse had become irretrievably lame.If you have ever qualified and been in this situation then you may be able to appreciate the disappointment. He had 3 weeks in which to learn to drive the horse - weekends only- travelling 3 hours each way. I doubt that many would think it worth the effort let alone the cost!
Both the drivers in question are YOUNG DRIVERS - the future of our sport. Please don't ever critisise them for wanting to succeed - just wish them luck. |
Ian Gilbert
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 8:33 pm: | |
The Competitions Committee will discuss the Championships the next time we meet.
I also wish to point out that the rules allow an Advanced or Open competitor to compete with an inexperienced Horse or Pony in the Intermediate Class until their first win.
Ian Gilbert
BHDTA Competition Committee |
Paul Phillips
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 5:28 pm: | |
Fiona Powell said earlier in this thread "Also, if the ability of the horse is paramount, presumably an advanced or open horse driven by a novice would go in the open class?"
I would like to ask the Competitions committee if they have given any thought to the following.
At Windsor two classes, below the Open class, were won by people who had successfully and deservedly qualified with their own horses but in the Championship drove borrowed animals that usually drive in much higher classes. I understand that this is perfectly legal and complies with the rules but had the Committee any thoughts on this complying with the much vaunted "spirit of the sport".
Would a committee member please give their opinion.
As Fiona said perhaps these should have been moved up a class........or is that being too draconian.
Please note that this is not sour grapes in any way shape or form butI do believe that people should drive the same horse in the finals as the one they qualified with.
Paul P |
Sandra Ormerod
| | Posted on Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 - 12:54 pm: | |
The Chester HDTG run a class called the Allcomers class which allows all open/multiple drivers to compete youngsters or horses that are returning to work in any combination ie single pair tandem without the pressure of going straight into open. In this class everyone drives the novice test and cones are driven at novice speed and a little more time on section A and E is allowed, this has proven to be a very popular class and is very well used as it allows horses/ponies to experence the atmosphere of a competition without the pressure of performing at open level. This also leaves the Novice class for drivers who are competing against other Novices. |
Rosemary Neale
| | Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 5:05 pm: | |
I just wonder if it would be possible to intrduce something along the lines of the ridden dressage classification - ie riders are classed open or restricted depending on experience and attainments but they can do virtually any test except open riders can rarely do a preliminary test. So it is possible to have experienced riders riding a novice horse in a novice test but they will be in the open section, leaving the true novice to compete against others in the restricted section. This way you don't get horses forced to do a test which they are not capable of performing but at the same time all riders are competing against others of the same or similar standard to themselves. Also the more experienced horses gain points as they progress and are then moved up to the next level when they have gained the required number of points. They can be downgraded for a novice rider but are then not able to compete in the restricted section but must go in to the open section. All this seems eminently fair to me and would get over all the issues you have raised ie you grade the horse and the driver. |
Carole Redgrave
| | Posted on Monday, 14 September, 2009 - 12:04 am: | |
The Novice Horse class doesn't necessarily consist of Novice horses, often quite the opposite! It would be a bit unfair to expect Novice Drivers to compete against Open Drivers albeit with a Novice Horse. As a "newby", I have been competing in Novice Horse as a Novice Driver (just about 2 years under my belt) but also ( some may say, stupidly ) with a totally Novice horse straight off the Harness Racing Track but we have learnt the ropes together and when we finally do get everything together, it will be so much more rewarding than having just done it with a horse who already knew the job- our problems have usually been caused by human error ( my backstepper is also totally novice at the job too!!! )- not horse related(Well APART FROM THE DRESSAGE) and this is why I would feel at a disadvantage were I competing with Open drivers who know the game inside out. Incidentally, we may be Novices in HDT but we have a combined total of 70 years with Riding horses! |
Fiona Powell
| | Posted on Sunday, 13 September, 2009 - 10:58 pm: | |
I agree with your assessment of horses' abilities re. the difficulty of dressage tests and also that it's nice to be in the competition when you've paid your entry fee and diesel money. Also I would rather see a simple test performed really well with a happy horse than an advanced test performed poorly.
This is the EACDG's current solution for club events: at our bigger events we allow the open single drivers to drive five tests: 7a, 1a, 9, Novice and Intermediate (I think we have moved the judges from the 100x40 to a 80x40 arena, or changed the arena size for the Novice test - this is not always practicable!). We ask the judges if they can do this beforehand, sometimes getting a few !! and it's not easy to schedule because some people share a groom or carriage or change their mind at the last minute ... See our schedule to Ashfields (under Announcements in April) and compare with the results - same thread.
Because the tests are all calculated out of 160, it works very well: those who are good at dressage get a good mark, whatever test they do.
(It's a tricky one: when I was a novice driver an open driver with a novice pony joined the class, supposed to be h/c, and won! Humph - it was the first time ever we would have won the class and I wasn't happy!)
We don't get many complaints about this system, certainly not from competitors, and I am convinced we actually get more entries because people can practise the test they want to do under competition conditions. If they do a harder test well, they will still win.
IMHO, the same horse is likely to perform better with an open driver than a novice driver. I do think that once you are open you are open. The novice drivers in our club are, naturally, mature, open-minded and sporting, but I can't see them welcoming this proposal, honestly.
As a club sec and someone who schedules events and already checks people's eligibility for each class, it would be one more thing to check - the horse and the driver. Then they bring a different horse to the competition...
I'm not saying our system is perfect, but I believe it works better than any other I know of! We usually get classes of a decent size, too, instead of lots of classes of 2, 3 or 4 competitors.
Also, if the ability of the horse is paramount, presumably an advanced or open horse driven by a novice would go in the open class?
I'm only referring to club competitions. I'm sure there's lots to discuss - good idea to bring it up. What do other clubs do? |
Brian Cairns
| | Posted on Sunday, 13 September, 2009 - 7:31 pm: | |
I believe the ability of the horse is paramount and having spoken to lots of other drivers the general opinion is that open drivers should be able to drive novice horse in the novice class. An open dressage test is far too advanced for a novice horse, at times it is too advanced for some open horses. Some will say to enter hc but having gone to considerable expense to get to the event plus entry fees most competitors would want to be in the competition.I would like your support for this suggestion. |
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