| Author | Message | ||
     Lyn Price Member Username: Lyn_price Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2011 |
Do we or don't we have a co opted chair? It is a great pity if Tim Bradford has not taken the post as he is a commensurately good businessman however the dreadful squabbling current and past probably is not worth the emotional drain however much you love the sport. If there was a genuine chance of change of culture there would be a number of very able members in the frame. Many can see the wood from the trees and have the leadership skills to take our sport forward however the current council and wider membership need to back that person irrespective of their own agenda's combined with a level of trust and goodwill that seems beyond their collective if not individual capabilities. | ||
| Maxine Ingham Member Username: Harvey Post Number: 51 Registered: 06-2008 |
I think David if BC council just answered the questions members are asking instead of immediately correcting inaccuracies this whole thing could be put to bed. There are lots of inaccuracies that we, the members would like answers to but we seem unable to get them..... | ||
| Bryan Gauson Member Username: Stevenson Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2008 |
DAVID I STAND CORRECTED ON THAT POINT OF HIS ATTENDANCE TO THE MEETING. I AM UNFORTUNATELY NOT AS WELL INFORMED AS SIMON HARRISON .PERHAPS YOU CAN ELABORATE ON THE REASON MR BRADFORD GAVE THE COUNCIL FOR STANDING DOWN AS CHAIRMAN.I AM SURE A MAN OF HIS QUALITY AND STANDING IN THE COMMUNITY MUST HAVE HAD A VERY GOOD REASON TO STAND DOWN AFTER DISPLAYING A GREAT APPETITE FOR HIS NEW ROLE. YOU MAY WISH TO ENLIGHTEN THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE FACTS THAT YOU HAVE TO HAND. | ||
| David Titmuss Member Username: Treasurer Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2013 |
Bryan, Again I am forced to correct an inaccurate statement. Tim Bradford was NOT at the Council Meeting or at the AGM, he was in fact attending his wife's graduation from music college. | ||
| Bryan Gauson Member Username: Stevenson Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2008 |
SIMON HARRISON Simon seems to be well versed in all council goings on. Perhaps he can get in touch and tell me how he has come to all the conclusions so quickly after just joining BC forum the day before this thread took off. Perhaps Simon you are just a Ghost writer for a nervous member who has made you up and is too frightened to stand up and be counted. No one has heard of you and you don't appear on any membership lists. If you do exist perhaps you would like to meet up and give me your solutions and ideas to improve BC. Perhaps you can give me your slant on why the new co-opted chairman who has voiced his enthusiasm at being chairman and who travelled all the way to the council meeting/ AGM decided to withdraw from the post at the last minute the truth would be helpful. | ||
| David Titmuss Member Username: Treasurer Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2013 |
I have to correct the statement made by George Bowman, start fees have never been used to reduce or hide the losses previously made by the National Championships. We have always been entirely open about the results of the Championships. At the same time I am happy to confirm the statement from Eileen Cornish regarding the year book. | ||
| john ripley Member Username: Nobby Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2011 |
I'll 2nd that here is another £50.00. | ||
| Eileen Cornish Member Username: Eileenc Post Number: 37 Registered: 08-2007 |
In Douglas Strachan's post he stated - A very comprehensive Year Book has also been produced “in-house” rather than by “Carriage Driving.” In point of fact there was only an online version in 2012. In 2013 and 2014 I produced the Year Book entirely at my own expense and had an agreement that no Year Book losses would be reimbursed by BHDTA/BC. | ||
| George Bowman Member Username: George Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2008 |
The National Champs at Windsor lost money year In year out, the last time it ran at Windsor it lost £11K of members money Over the years the start fee for some reason were incorporated in the National Championships accounts to hide losses, What other reason would you put the start fee income from all the events in to the accounts of the National Championships Wilf and Zoe stepped in to save the day The first time in a lot of years that the National Championships did not cost the members money. There's a disute over the start fees that should have been paid to Ashfield. Wilf resigns and decides to make Asdhfields a club event Wilf and Zoe helped out the the whole sport and we all had a fantastic time at Ashfields National Championships So in repayment your caring council decide to organise an new event at an existing venue, the date set for the new event is the same Ashfields club event Then the new event is given all selection event status to try and wreck Ashfields. This childish and vindictive behaviour by our council is destroying our sport The Council and E.O are holding back information with regard to this matter, Its time to come clean. | ||
| Lyn Price Member Username: Lyn_price Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2011 |
For the members who did not make the AGM it should be implicit on BC to update their website to reflect who is and who isn't on council and its office holders particularly the Chair. It is lamentable particularly in the light of the current impasse that the BC leadership is not as yet recognised. Following the SWOT analysis that was conducted one strong recommendation was the concept of "nationals" and "regionals" which by their title suggests BC involvement ( which is not the case bar the start fee) should have a complete rethink. Consideration was recommended by the membership to align ourselves with eventing, have clarity and transparency and consider qualifying events as per every other discipline but not necessarily every class. We already have a precedence with novice qualifiers. Personally I think it is lamentable the issue that has evolved around Lowther and Ashfields, it is unfortunate but not unsurprising the agreement re the 2013 NC was not recorded and even more unsurprising a way forward has not been agreed. The start fees are as is; however an ex gratia payment in exceptional circumstances of Ashfields running the 2013 NC to ameliorate the situation surely cannot be beyond the negotiation and leadership skills of the new Chair and council of BC. I believe as I have previously recommended in a meeting with council the structure of BC is too flat and non representative of todays businesses and management structures. Flat structures can lead to protracted and unimaginative decision making. However council were vociferous in their defence and considered they had an appropriate structure. We have one of the last equestrian sports which is still largely amateur thus giving it a unique and unambiguous quality which should be valued - the competing membership is still relatively small and every opportunity for cohesive working should be explored alongside some more dynamic thinking to safeguard its future. BC has I believe made much better effort to communicate to its membership and improve its marketing to the wider equestrian audience. | ||
| Wendy Embleton Member Username: Bwemble Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2009 |
Apologies got Erdigg wrong. Cirencester replaced Erddig and was a big success. Please ingnore my mistake. Apologies again. | ||
| Wendy Embleton Member Username: Bwemble Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2009 |
I feel the point is being missed. Figures can be quoted and banded about as much as anyone wants. 2013 NC was on its knees with nowhere to go. After the huge losses being made at Windsor, BC sent emails telling us NC would run at Erddig only to be told confusion on the amount of ground rent would not make the NC viable. Wilf and Zoe offered to save the NC by taking ALL responsibility away for BC and run the event in place of BC themselves at no expense to BC and take all the risks whether it be profit or loss. From this discussion I think it is fair to question whether the council represents its members best interests? BC appears to have an inability to proactively resolve the issue which has now cost members possibly the best venue we have available for National events. Come on council represent us members and discuss this issue. | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 19 Registered: 06-2007 |
Apologies. My steam driven computer has let me down. My last paragraph should read. “ On a positive note, the Council have stabilised the Finances and have held, what is reported to have been, the very best National Championship ever. In addition, they have responded to Club requests for a British Rule Book and to the SWOT feed-back on communications. The web pages are much more active and crammed full of relevant information and all members receive reports of Council meetings. The H&S documentation has been revised in the last eighteen months. A very comprehensive Year Book has also been produced “in-house” rather than by “Carriage Driving” Council have continued to hold training Clinics despite the drastic reduction in Grants. All this whilst maintaining their normal functions of Administering our Sport , including liasing with BEF/FEI, negotiating Insurance policies, etc etc Thank you.” | ||
| Maxine Ingham Member Username: Harvey Post Number: 48 Registered: 06-2008 |
Here is the letter that Zoe has sent to competitors, clearly the monies are owed to Ashfields. I think it explains the situation truthfully. BC is at a crossroads and it sounds as though the membership are losing confidence in their ability to run the sport fairly. Ashfields Explanation. To all previous Ashfields Competitors I would like to apologize for not running Ashfields 2015 National event and feel that an explanation from Ashfields is needed. Unfortunately I was not able to attend yesterday’s AGM but apparently when a member asked council the reason for Ashfields not running an event in 2015 they were told “you need to ask the organisers of Ashfields” Wilf as a council member was not able to answer this question or discuss council business. So here is my explanation: In 2013 as you know the decision was made not to run the NC at Windsor due to the large loss of funds and a new site was needed, when we heard about this we said if another site was not found Ashfields would be willing to stand in and run the NC to assist BC. So when asked we agreed to run them, we said “we will do so on the grounds that Ashfields would take any income and all fees and would also take on board any losses, this would be at no cost what so ever to the BC and its membership. As you know when you enter an event the start fee is made out to the BC, which Ashfields handed over to the BC after the event, we were then under the impression we would then have this money returned to us as part of the income, which we were then told this was not going to happen. (the start fee is in the region of £4500-£5000) a very nice profit for BC in 2013 but a substantial loss to Ashfields. Under normal Ashfields National events we totally understand that the Start fee goes back into the BC funds but this was not a normal situation and not what was agreed prior to the event being run. Sometimes you have to stick to your guns, but unfortunately this is then at the detriment to the members, this money would have been a huge benefit to Ashfields to recover their losses for running the BC National championships, any spare monies would have gone back into improvements for future events here and perhaps for a new obstacles. Once again my apologies, but please watch this space for some great club events here at Ashfields. Regards Zoe | ||
| Vicky Brennan Member Username: Vicky_brennan Post Number: 70 Registered: 07-2012 |
Out of interest and as a new member (3 years only) can I ask someone to explain what qualifications are required to be a member of the council. Could someone also explain what is involved commitment wise as, with the best will in the world, not everyone can manage such a commitment. We must have a lot of people in the club with management experience who could offer their services if they were provided with the information they need to put themselves forward - noone should "assume" it is just satisfaction with the status quo or apathy - just a thought | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2007 |
I refer to the above and welcome the revival of debate in the Forum where there appears to be three strands of discussion, Starter Fees at 2013Ashfields Championship, Council, and Events With respect to Starter Fees the following background may refresh memories as to why Starter Fees were introduced into our Sport. In 2006, BHDTA received Income from Horse Registration and a Levy on each competitor at each event. There was a lobby to change this arrangement and so Starter Fees were introduced in 2007. The relative revenues to BHDTA Income were, 2006 Registration £16,157 and Levies £11,262 making £27,419 , and in 2007 Starter Fees £20,285. Ever since 2007, Starter Fees have been a significant proportion of BHDTA / BC Income and have been received from ALL events since then. The Audited Accounts for the years 2009 to 2012 show a loss of £62,775 and so the Council were therefore faced with major financial restraints and therefore very difficult decisions had to be made.. In 2013 Starter Fees in fact contributed 37.27% towards the Administration of our Sport and without generous donations the 2013 Accounts would have shown a loss.. I commend Council for their fiscal prudence and would suggest that those wishing to reinstate Ashfields might wish to collect a sum, equivalent to the disputed Starter Fees. Hence “User Pays” With respect to Council elections, I was surprised that there were no new nominations for Council. This suggested to me that i) members were very satisfied with the present Council or ii) members could not care less or iii) members were not prepared to spend many, many, hours of their time on Council business and spend their money attending many Meetings, Clinics, etc. . I am most grateful to the present Council members and all past Council members for all their work on behalf of our Sport. They are/were volunteers who received many criticisms and very few thanks. With respects to National Events , Council are only responsible for the Annual Championships Event and all other National Events are the responsibility of either individuals or organisations. It is therefore up to members to organise events and thus find a suitable venue, establish a budget and finances , and organise the administration and hardware of the event. I commend the Council for publishing the details of the Cirencester costs as it indicates the scale and some of the complexities of an event. It is interesting that in the 1998 Championships , donations and sponsorships were 31.5 % of the Income. The good old days. On a positive note the Council have stabilised the Finances and have held, what is reported to have been, the | ||
| Simon Harrison Member Username: Simon_harrison Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2014 |
I guess Ill get shot given the posts below but reading between the lines it looks like BC got given a choice to pay Ashfields money which they were not entitled to in order to keep the event or stand up to them. Persoannly I commend BC for having the guts to take a stand. Its clear Wilf knew start fees were never part of the champ income. You cant argue with the accounts. He was on council so how come this only started after BC ran a good event 12 months on. He said nothing at the meeting. Am I on my own thinking there is some conspiracy to create trouble. It seems to be working unless the so far silent members speak up. Sorry to bang on in my first post but this is going too far. BC cant give away money because one event is not getting its own way. Im now ducking. | ||
| john ripley Member Username: Nobby Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2011 |
Another point that has not been touched on below, is that 2013 showed a profit of £9,489.00 "due to a small increase in fees and subscription and by eradicating losses incurred in running the National Championships". Almost certainly this would not of happened if Ashfields had not been available. Council please open discussions with Ashfield & Lowther again because words like hindrance and dictatorship make for very uncomfortable reading, when we are all so passionate about our sport and perhaps we as competitors should make more of an effort too. | ||
| avril munson Member Username: Avrilmunson Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2011 |
If the funds in this case belonged to an individual the council would be well within their rights to discuss this no further, but this is members money and this is not a dictatorship! Please pay up and let us all move on, allocating blame is a destructive exercise and I am sure once settled everyone can forgive and forget! | ||
| Paul Phillips Member Username: Paulcarriage Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2007 |
Lorna, you rightly say that BC (BHDTA) need to be put back on track. BUT are the people on the council, the ones that drove BC off the tracks, the right people to rectify the numerous problems they have created. As for the treatment of Wilf and Zoe, what a disgrace, words fail me. I see from Mary’s email about Ashfields that “no further statements are planned in respect of this situation”. This like it or lump it attitude is typical of BC but not at all conducive to the smooth friendly running of the organisation. | ||
| Lorna Ingram Member Username: Stigman Post Number: 57 Registered: 04-2010 |
Clearly the BC needs reminding that Wilf and Zoe run Ashfields whatever the weather conditions , the work involved getting everyone on and off the site plus the considerable work to get Ashfields looking fantastic again for the following season after the NC is costly and time consuming , Zoe and Wilf should be rewarded for this , not denied monies owed to them !! The BC should do the right thing and get our sport back on track . | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 21 Registered: 04-2007 |
David Taylor, have a look at the "council" on the BC website. Several members gone including chairman. | ||
| Wendy Embleton Member Username: Bwemble Post Number: 9 Registered: 07-2009 |
Yes David unfortunately BC has lost Wilf from the committee he has resigned.. Wilf and Zoe obviously believe very strongly the start money is owed to them. The council should do everything possible to get this matter resolved as soon as possible eg payment in full. To lose the asset of one of the countries top drivers and coaches along with his partner Zoe who together have so much knowledge and experience to offer can only surely be a disaster for BC. Can we as members let BC lose possibly the most popular purpose built venue on our driving calendar. After the mess left in 2012 and then Wilf and Zoe picking the Championships up of its knees in 2013 for us, I would think the council would be doing everything in their power to retain this venue. Ashfields being possibly the only venue capable of getting us out of a muddle or unforeseen circumstances in the future. Wilf resigned, no Ashfields National, no Lowther National, statements of less than helpful people. Can anyone explain just what is going on? Instead of being less than helpful could the committee not ask what they could do to be helpful as proved at Cirencester Park National Championships. There has just been a vote in Scotland and it was voted "Better Together" Can council do all they can to keep Lowther and Ashfields on the Calendar. So come on pay the money and ask George what you can do to help. | ||
| Bryan Gauson Member Username: Stevenson Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2008 |
BC full time officer failed to write to Ashfields confirming the terms and conditions of their offer to run the National Championships in 2013. No document exists . No one on the Council thought is was important to record this matter. Now in 2014 it is a misunderstanding by Ashfields. | ||
| David Taylor Member Username: Davidt Post Number: 27 Registered: 02-2007 |
Please, BC, correct me if I am wrong, but like a lot of the membership we hear rumours and snippets, some of which are maybe wrong or best one sided. But, there must be more to all of this? George Bowman's entry below has implications to intrigue and explanations to ask for. I also heard that when the Windsor venue for National Championships was abandoned the obstacle materials were offered for sale. Midlands bought these at a nominal price (the five bar gates from obstacle 5 must have been worth note alone) even if they did have to pay to collect and transport all of these. I heard that Wilf really wanted the bridge to use at Ashfields but was barred from bidding because he was on the committee. I can understand just buying them under the counter would be out of order but an open and fair bid!! Incidentally who is on the committee now - several listed are due to leave this year - are Wilf and James still on committee or have we lost them? | ||
| avril munson Member Username: Avrilmunson Post Number: 19 Registered: 06-2011 |
I believe the council are saying it was a misunderstanding? Surely misunderstandings are for sorting not ignoring, especially amongst family? The venue at Ashfields is amazing as a novice competitor it and Sandringham are the only national qualifiers I am likely to attend, and now it just leaves the one. Seems crazy not to put politics aside and sort this out? | ||
| Debbie Tatton Member Username: Debtattonhotmailcom Post Number: 21 Registered: 05-2011 |
I would also like to thank BC for the explanation concerning Ashfields but it doesn't seem to solve anything does it? | ||
| Debbie Tatton Member Username: Debtattonhotmailcom Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2011 |
I too think that its a great shame that Ashfields is not running as a National in 2015. What an earth is going on at BC? I am relatively new as a national competitor but the things that appear to be happening seems to be affecting all competitors at all levels. I would think about standing for council but dont feel I have enough experience yet. Cant afford all the diesel to get to the meetings anyway! | ||
| BC Office Member Username: British_carriagedriving Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2014 |
Statement from Council regarding Ashfields Members have indicated that they wish the background to the loss of Ashfields to the National Calendar to be made public. The Council accept that speculation and conjecture are rife at present and wish to put their view of the situation before the members in the interests of openness. After the financial losses incurred by the 2012 National Championships, Council looked for solutions as such losses were not sustainable. They prepared a document titled, “National Championship requirements,” the first line of which indicated there should be, “No financial implications for BHDTA.” Council then met in March 2013 and Wilf Bowman Ripley, a Council member and event organiser at Ashfields, offered to take on the Championships and retain any profit or sustain any losses. Wilf was to take all the National Championship income through entry fees, donations, sponsorship, catering concessions, sale of merchandise etc. This offer was discussed by Council and the decision was taken to proceed for one year and the minutes record, “the NCs for 2013 should be at Ashfields with no financial input from the BHDTA.” Start fees from all events, including the National Championships, have always been shown as income for BHDTA / BC in the Annual Accounts. Unfortunately a misunderstanding arose when Wilf felt he was to receive the start fees for the 2013 Championships. When the schedule was written it was made clear that start fees went to British Carriagedriving and the Treasurer can confirm a similar conversation with Wilf after a Council meeting. Wilf went ahead and ran the event which was a great success with 127 entries. British Carriagedriving have not seen accounts for this event but it was hoped that Ashfields would run at a profit with 127 entries and permanent obstacles already in place. After the event, Wilf again raised the issue of start fees but Council reiterated its position that these were, and always had been, income for the Association and did not form part of the event income. Nothing more was heard or discussed until, at this year’s National Championships, information that Ashfields did not plan to run was heard. Barry Hilditch, Chairman of the Competitions Committee, immediately approached Wilf who confirmed this decision and Barry notified this to Council at their meeting on 1st October at which Wilf was present. Wilf did not elaborate on his reasons for this decision at the meeting and Council respected his wish to leave the matter there. Rumours then began to circulate that it was the issue of start fees that had caused Wilf to make this decision so the Chairman, Jock McFarlane, approached Wilf who confirmed this was the case. Wilf said that if British Carriagedriving paid him the start fees he felt he was owed, then he would run Ashfields. Jock and the Council did everything they could but, as custodians of the members’ money, were unable to make the payment of start fees as this had never been part of the agreement, and, as stated above, all the annual accounts show the National Championship start fees as income for British Carriagedriving. An impasse was therefore reached and Wilf took the decision that he did not wish to run Ashfields in 2015. No further statements are planned in respect of this situation. | ||
| avril munson Member Username: Avrilmunson Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2011 |
I agree with Terry, I also feel let down by the BC, it is the members money. Even if there was a misunderstanding, there is no reason for not reimbursing Ashfields as they expected. It was a great event and there is no reason for them to be out of pocket! It is a great venue and one that would be a great loss! Please will all members speak up? | ||
| George Bowman Member Username: George Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2008 |
Dear Terry I have to correct you, there are only 4 National events next year Lowther is going to run as a club event in 2015 The event will be better than before and cheaper for competitors, who will have no start fees to pay and you still get to drive in front of a huge crowd The Lowther team have had no help from the council just hindrances and 2 members of council have actively gone out the wreck the event. | ||
| TERRY BAILEY Member Username: Vegman Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2010 |
As a competitor I was very surprised not to see Ashfields listed as a national event in 2015. After receiving an email from Ashfields I was taken aback and now understand why. If an agreement was made with regards to the start fee I feel as a competitor the BC has let me and itself down. I think Ashfields should be rewarded and not penalised for organising the NC at such short notice, saving the BC several thousands of pounds. Although qualified, for personal reasons I was not able to compete. I did spectate and was very impressed the way Ashfields pulled out all of the stops and made it one of the best championships I have attended. As the calander has already depleted with only 5 nationals available in 2015, it goes to show how important Ashfields is. I feel that the BC should come forward and explain to its competitors why Ashfields is not a national event in 2015. If other competitors feel as we do I hope that they continue this thread to show the BC how they feel. |