| Author | Message | ||
     Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 14 Registered: 01-2008 |
Thank you everyone for all your posts, it certainly has got people talking, i hope you dont let it rest here, keep pushing for change to ensure the welfare of the HORSE.I read a comment from a judge which said that the BHDTA dont have any say in club events, their lies the problem! its a case of them and us. | ||
| Diane Phillips Member Username: Dianephillips Post Number: 38 Registered: 06-2010 |
Going a little off piste here with the discussion. I would be wary of introducing new classes into the system for whatever reason. There are little enough competitors to fill the classes we have already got! Having said that, if one competitor was allowed to compete two horses in the same or different classes (as in other disciplines) and not have to go HC, would that not increase the entry numbers? (Granted, a nightmare for organisers of course) | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2007 |
Think the novice tests would benefit with walk /trot/walk/trot transitions, and a give and take with the reins, The transitions will help with obedience and lightness, and the give and take will show up if self carriage is getting established, as well as being on the bit !! Will show up those drivers that are hanging on for dear life lol ! All this can be practiced anywhere on exercise no excuse for not having an arena !!!! | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 13 Registered: 01-2008 |
Joe you need to establish softness through his body, lateral and vertical flexion, lateral work , hind leg stepping under,you cant achieve this with a different bit, it takes time and the correct training, dont forget the novice test has collected circles. | ||
| Joe Hodgson Member Username: Joehodgson Post Number: 199 Registered: 07-2010 |
I think Brian is right about pre-novices not having to rush through the cones to be in there time allowed when all it's doing is blowing its mind and possibly spoiling a good horse/pony for the future. Things needs to be easy and clearer for new drivers to take under there belt and get to grips with the HDT before progressing into diffrent classes. The pre-novice dressage test seems fine to me but could be made shorter and less movements for a new driver to get used with been in a dressage arena and to be able to bring a horse/pony on slowley. The novice dressage test as i found out last year is better than the pre-novice test i find but i personally think it needs its 20metre circles made bigger to possibly 30-40metres as this will encourage a new novice horse to get the feel of bending and to not force them to bend on tight circles and using the whole arena. I have a trotter x and he must have been broken to drive with overcheck on which i detest with a passion, i have re-mouthed him and played around with bits over the winter and i think i have found a bit he likes. He stays on the bit in a nice round outline even on big circles, try and do a small 20metre circle and thats when his head goes up as i feel i am then asking to much from him and he struggles to do small circles. He is only a baby (7yo) so i do not want to rush him. HC would be an option but there again we are getting no benefit as HC entries should have a smaller entry fee as they are not competing just training to be fair. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2008 |
A lot of you seem to be missing the point, the discussion i started was that the novice horse should not be asked to do advanced movements, therfore the class structure needs to be changed to safeguard the welfare of the horse.You must take on board what Julie says, she is a successful international driver and can clearly see the importance of the correct training of a novice horse and has the horses welfare at heart, just look at her horses self carriage and compare them with some of the others.The pre novice and novice horses at club level are expected to do the same cones and obstacles as the open class, this does not happen in other diciplines,pre novice horses should not have to go against the clock, they should be encouraged to drive slowly and smoothly so as not to blow the horses mind and ruin its future.If you look at eventing, Fox Pitt competes in the lower classes with his young horses, and is often beaten by novice riders and horses, he knows the value of bringing the horses along slowly, he is at the top of his sport worlwide.A lot of the drivers need to take the blinkers off and wear an open one so as they can see clearly, have a look around and you can clearly see horses that are not trained correctly.The BHDTA needs to get involved at club level to ensure the newcomers have the help and instruction they clearly need. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 27 Registered: 07-2011 |
Julie, I apologise if you feel it was a personal attack on you. It was meant as a non-personal attack on your idea. If you are proposing a completely separate class I have no conceptual problem with that. If you want to combine it with the novice class then it makes no sense to me. You could not qualify for points leagues or nationals and I don’t see how you can say that novices would be encouraged by the arrangement. What is the evidence for that statement? Shouldn’t you ask them first? I am also curious why an open driver would want to win something with a novice horse. I would just want to get round quietly. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 61 Registered: 03-2007 |
You have a valid point Kathleen but if the class was divided you could have your novice driver driving a more experienced horse and you could use the same system of downgrading (within reason). You have answered the question though re the novice horse 'I would maybe have had to join at intermediate level. That's really scary for a newcomer!' How do we think the novice horse copes (in a class he his not ready for)? The argument of HC or competitive goes back to the same thing, why should you have to pay a full entry fee when you can't win anything, no other discipline does it. The HC bit is not really the issue, the issue is, should we be asking our novice horses to produce advanced movements at novice level. The answer is NO. | ||
| Kathleen Upsall Member Username: Katastrophy Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2008 |
Julie, one part of your post stood out a little for me- that winning may take second place to achieving the goal. If that is true, why not go HC and not worry about the rosette? I am one of the newcomers joining the sport. I'm 29, have show jumped, played at pony club and generally galloped about having fun for years. I have a decent job enabling me to keep my horses competitively, and I fancied a change from the norm, so tried driving. My club have made it as easy as possible to start competing- we have a pre-novice class, with a simple dressage test and loads of support. Patti in particular is a wonderfully helpful judge- good constructive comments on test sheets and she has in the past sought me out after dressage to have a chat about my pony's way of going and give good, sound, advice. It all helps to make a newcomer feel like they want to come back (and my poor dad wish that his wallet had never met a driving harness!) However, I did the 'sensible' thing and bought an experienced pony. He would have had 'points' on his card had we been under BE rules, and I would maybe have had to join at intermediate level. That's really scary for a newcomer! I wouldn't start show jumping at 1.20, or eventing at 1*... Why start driving at a higher level? Eventers can downgrade their horses for varying reasons, Irish points are different to British, not to mention those on the continent! What would happen re points downgrading after time off, or when buying in a horse from, say, holland? You could in theory bring it in as a novice- what databases are there in place abroad for driving horses for the BHDTA (BC?!) to check for information? Will we need an interpreter?! Just a few things that would need to be considered. The one thing that really strikes me, is that I wouldn't dream of buying an eventing schoolmaster ex-Olympic horse and popping around badminton, I'm simply not safe doing so... I'm not a good enough pilot. However, I would buy that schoolmaster to pop round BE100- happily, and would think that it could teach me a hell of a lot. My driving schoolmaster has certainly done that for me and given me the confidence I need to bring my next horse out this year. So I'm now hooked, and the world has another carriage driver... And isn't that the whole point? Making it as easy as possible to get new people in. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2007 |
Yes Daniel I have thought it through, have you? Just to make it quite clear, I am not suggesting I drive anything and I do not have a novice to bring out so I have NOTHING to gain here. In any other discipline an open/advanced rider can bring on young horses through the grades without causing a problem. Just think about it, would a top rider take a novice horse into a Grand Prix class, NO, and no one in their right minds would even suggest it or allow it yet we are happy to do it. If you had read the post properly you would also have seen that I proposed two sections in the novice class so the novice driver competes in the same class as the open driver with a novice horse, this would allow the novice driver to gauge his abilities against a more experienced driver and hopefully watch, learn and compare like for like. The Open driver could qualify in his own section or be excluded from qualifying for the championships, just to make it clear it would ONLY be divided should non novices wish to take part. I did not say I didn’t want to have a go if I had a novice, I asked why anyone should not be entitled to win a £2.50 rosette when it has cost them £100+ to enter. Just because an open driver was competing with a novice horse does not mean they will go all out to win, however if the horse is better trained, more relaxed and correct, he deserves to win so the horse gains his progresion points. It is not all about speed or winning. You might like to consider that the more advanced driver could be trying to work on a particular aspect of the horses performance and winning might take second place to achieving ‘the goal’. The horse’s ability would be defined on their winnings, a points system if you like. Take a look at any other discipline and you will get your answer. Anyway, this discussion is digressing. I still firmly agree that there is no place for extension or collection in novice tests and that the horse should be put first. It is also more constructive if the discussion does not become personal and individuals are not attacked for their views. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2011 |
I fully agree that “A novice horse should be given the time to develop naturally and at his own pace”. But as for open drivers competing at novice level. Have you thought this thing through? You say “Drivers get swept along in the moment” but you don’t want to go h/c because you want to have a go. That is a contradiction you must resolve. You say you don’t want to pay all that money just to train your horse. But if you are open driver on novice horse that is exactly what you are doing, whether or not you are formally in the competition. And once you have beaten all these beginners, what then? You will qualify for the Nationals and they won’t. This means you could now simultaneously win advanced horse on your first equine and novice horse on your second. You could hold the Nationals in your field at home! We’d all save a fortune. Also, how will you define your novice horse? On experience or ability? Could I buy a top horse from Ireland or is it a worldwide category? If so, who will do the paperwork/policing? As for the problem of novices using experienced horses. They should ALL use experienced horses. It’s the quickest way to move your game on and that is what the novices are trying to do. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 11 Registered: 01-2008 |
In reply to Mike, the horses would have to be registered and graded.With regard to the trainers. i have spent a lot of money over the years on trainers that can not teach the method, as i have explained earlier a young horse needs a pathway of building blocks to achieve excellence and must not be moved on until each stage has been mastered, the easiest way is a good dressage rider. The only two trainers that teach the correct method are Boyd Excel and Sarah Garnet.I was expecting great things when international dressage rider James Rooney was apointed but sadly he seems to have embraced our way of doing things. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2008 |
Julie you have said it all, you have dotted the eyes and crossed the Ts HALLELULJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need you on the judges committee. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2007 |
IMHO I think Brian is absolutely right. A novice horse should be given the time to develop naturally and at his own pace. It is very easy to suggest that drivers compete to the ability of their horse but there are a few problems there 1. Drivers get swept along in the moment 2. Some drivers think their horse and themselves to be better trained than they really are 3. Why should open drivers have to go HC, in this day and age it is far too expensive to ‘school’ your horse at national level for a year. All our horses and ponies should be registered and move up according to their competition history on points gained as in all the other disciplines. We have to declare our horses so it shouldn't be too difficult to grade them. Other disciplines have experienced riders riding novice horses in novice classes with no problem. If we stick to what we have and open drivers are made to compete novices HC then the novice driver should also have to compete HC if he has an experienced horse, neither option is of any real use. There is no reason why a novice class can’t be divided ( group a, group b )between novice horse and novice driver (where entries warrant) where rosettes are awarded separately and it would give the real novice something to aim for. If we are looking to the future of our sport we need to produce well trained animals with a sound and correct grounding, this takes time, a long time. We need to make sure our drivers are not cutting corners and that the welfare of the horse is paramount, we can’t do that with the present system and as a result when we do compete on the world stage (some lucky ones) the gaps in our early training show up. Not everyone wants to compete for their country but that doesn't mean we should sacrifice sound training and a well defined progressive competition structure. When it comes to multiples, yes they should also have to work up the rankings as individual animals. How often do we see inexperienced horses and ponies ‘tied’ to a partner and hurried round an event, very often the poor animal is baffled and just along for the ride. We need to be producing animals that will be around for years to come so novices can take them on and learn the ropes. All that said the only way we can make all that viable is to (A) increase entries and (B) reduce entry fees. If we implement B, A will follow In response to Daniel, why should anyone pay over £100 to compete and not have anything to show for it at the end. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2008 |
Brian I'd like to know more about your suggestion of a horse database? and what the solution is. How would in be funded? How would it decide what class you entered? Multiple classes are considered open classes and have harder tests, would young/inexperienced horse's therefore not be allowed to compete in a multiple until they have enough experience? or would you introduce novice, intermediate, open and advanced team classes? You obviously have a low opinion of the bhdta's,trainer's and driver's ability to produce 'top driven dressage horses.' I'd like to know what your vision of how we would achieve this? | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2008 |
Thats correct James. you obviously know from training ridden horses how important it is to bring them along slowly and not ask for advanced movements before they can do the basics well. Sadly our club dont make provision for the open drivers novice horses. | ||
| James Lewis Member Username: Rufuss Post Number: 18 Registered: 05-2008 |
we had this exact scenario last year a novice horse with an open driver,wasn't a huge problem spent the summer doing club events and this winter doing aff dressage going from novice to medium so hoping this season despite lack of comp experience he is as prepared as any horse in the open class! I also breed and produce ridden event and dressage horses and they do not go out and compete until they are ready.if your horse isn't ready for National open classes get more miles on the clock at the many club events who are usually happy to let you go in any class and should be able to offer a variety of tests. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2008 |
It would only be scary if the driver wasnt a competent horse person, when you first drive a car you dont buy a ferrai you buy a tried and tested ford fiesta.All horses should be registered, as in other horse competitions. | ||
| Kathleen Upsall Member Username: Katastrophy Post Number: 89 Registered: 10-2008 |
By that reasoning, any novice buying a 'been there, done it' horse (the safest way to start, I'd say!!) would have to go in at the horse's previous level- not only scary, but demoralising as well, and incredibly hard to police. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2008 |
a novice horse belongs in the novice class | ||
| James Lewis Member Username: Rufuss Post Number: 17 Registered: 05-2008 |
An open driver can compete a novice horse in the intermediate classes nationally,but cannot qualify for the National Champs at this level | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 25 Registered: 07-2011 |
More of a partnership,I would have said. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2008 |
It is the ability of the horse that is paramount, as in all other disiplines, why not in driving, or do our horses not have as much ability! i dont think so. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2011 |
My understanding is that novice classes are for novice people i.e. people who have not experienced how outdoor competitions are run. I agree that novice horses should do novice tests. But why not h/c? It’s not as if they need the rosettes is it? | ||
| Clare Iveagh Member Username: Clarei Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2007 |
I thought this was a constructive conversation about how to encourage "newcomers" I have to say that allowing open drivers to compete novice horses against novice drivers with novice horses is not going to encourage anyone into the sport. It would be nice to see some recognition for novice horses being brought on but I fear the Bhdta has bigger fish to fry. I suggest that whilst collection is the "big event" in dressage you will need to have it already when you start driving trials as you need it when you do the big event in driving trials which is the obstacles  )) | ||
| Lorna Ingam Member Username: Stigman Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2010 |
i agree with lots of the comments posted i am driving at club novice level how ever my more experienced pony is sidelined with an injury so am about to start the season with my youngster who iam bringing on slowly ,so my pony now has the novice test with 20 m collected trot and extended trot !!! he is only 4 and his paces are not yet established , so i will hope to get a good working trot and not ask him to do something he is not yet capable of , i want him to learn with out any pressure and stay willing untill he is ready to do more , along with this he will only do sec e and do big slow loops in the obs , i dont think any more at this stage is good for him , here"s to a good season !!! | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2008 |
Kate if you have done ridden dressage you should know collection is the ultimate movement, and therfore has no place in the novice class for the novice horse.If you become a open driver you will have to compete in a class that has metres and metres of collection with a novice horse,an open driver should be able to compete a novice horse in the novice classes, and i dont mean HC. | ||
| Kathleen Upsall Member Username: Katastrophy Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2008 |
Brian- I'm a novice and try my best not to haul my long suffering wonder-pony left or right, and (despite being slightly speed demon like in the obstacles) if anyone suggested I was chasing him through an obstacle I'd be rather upset with myself....! However, my rising four year old who is being put to harness now already has a basic knowledge of extension and collection- I've put it in place ridden and as he develops will transfer to his driven work. I'm just starting my novice classes, and the collection doesn't bother me at all- neither does canter work, after all I ask him for both under saddle out hacking, do have no qualms asking in an arena driven. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2008 |
Thank you Clare a horse should be trained to do all these movements before it is chased around an obstacle and hauled left and right. | ||
| Clare Iveagh Member Username: Clarei Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2007 |
I find it difficult to understand why one would point a horse at an obstacle/cones and expect it to necessarily shorten and lengthen it's stride if it was not able to do this in a dressage arena. (ditto with canter) Either it can't do it and therefore it would be better to wait until it can or it can do it and should be able to produce it anywhere at any time? | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2007 |
My pony was seven years old when I got him Brian and we suspect he had done a bit of road racing. In spite of his lack of early schooling I managed to take him up through the ranks to the Advanced class and in 2011 was Advanced National Champion. Collection has always been difficult with him however I can usually achieve a 7 which is 'Fairly Good' according to the dressage judge. Thankfully Driving Trials have three phases and we get to shine in other areas as he is now 20 and it's unlikely I'm going to change his attitude now (I wouldn't want to - he's so much fun!) Coaches do not write the dressage tests I'm afraid and they do not train the horses - they only coach the drivers. If you have strong views about the current tests you could write to the Council to have them considered. I think Mike has made valid points about the canter being introduced earlier. Perhaps an Intermediate test where we do more intricate shapes in walk and trot and some simple canter movements would suit more people and leave the collection to the more advanced classes. | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2008 |
Thats correct Daniel,flow rythme relaxation suppleness contact impulsion straightness and then collection,these are the building blocks that need to be in place from the very beginning in order not to spoil a young horse. The new BHDTA coaches need to take this on board when instructing beginners or else we will never have top driven dressage horses.In the past instruction has been poor no one could teach the method as i have realised to my cost, it is time for a different approach, the horses must be moved along slowly through the classes this is why collection must be removed from the novice classes.A previous comment from an open driver who said her horse struggles with collection proves my point of not moving a horse on until it is ready, obedient, supple and light in hand. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2011 |
I don’t think that is what Brian is saying. It’s not because you can’t get the movement right. It’s because your horse has not reached the level of suppleness, impulsion and balance that he can do the movement correctly (i.e. not evading) without damaging himself. It’s German training scales without the shortcuts. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2008 |
I agree with janet removing things from test because we can't perfect the movements will never improve standards. A young horse class should be introduced with a simpler dressage test for more inexperienced horses. Personally I think small bits of canter should be introduced into tests from intermediate and above. this would make the move to advance less of a jump and secondly learning a controlled and balanced canter will improve your obstacles. | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 91 Registered: 03-2007 |
They'll only be progressed if they're good enough. And as for collection - nobody is expecting 10s, it's all about building and trying to improve. Even at top level I struggle with collection at times (it isn't my pony's strength as he's so forward going) but it doesn't stop me competing - nothing has put me off having a go and trying to be the best I can. Too many people look for easy options and make excuses - just try harder, learn more, practise and improve. It's a great feeling when those 4s and 5s become 6s and 7s and maybe even 8s - work at it! In ridden tests very novice horses are cantering and being asked to work in an arena a quarter of the size of a driving arena - you're comparing apples and oranges. | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 85 Registered: 03-2008 |
Well said Brian! | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2008 |
while some pre novices stay in the class forever, others are moved out after one season,into the novices, and as all horsemen should know collection is the ultimate movement, and takes years of training, and may i add ! the correct training,not slowing the horse down and pulling it on the forehand, as the majority seem to do. | ||
| Clare Iveagh Member Username: Clarei Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2007 |
HI whilst I couldn't agree more with your comments about grass roots I beg to differ on the dressage... Mainly because newcomers should not be doing the novice test.. they should be doing the prenovice test.... This test is aimed as a starter for both drivers and horses and avoids both collected and IMHO more importantly direct transitions ( which can cause anxiety in inexperienced animals). There is also the option to start indoors where the tests are even simpler although in a confined space which adds it's own complications. However, i would also like to point out that an animal's ability to shorten and lengthen it's stride on command is really vital in the obstacles especially as you progress and with the absence of canter in tests till much later on (advanced) we have more more time to work on our trot. I hope this helps? | ||
| Brian Cairns Member Username: Brianc Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2008 |
If the BHDTA is looking to encourage new people into the sport it has got to put its house in order first. Their needs to be more connection with the grass roots of the sport, new people who are interested in the sport have generaly had a ridden background, and are baffled when they see the dressage tests they are expected to perform at novice level, especialy when pulling a carriage and two people. Collection is an advanced movement and has no place in novice tests and needs to be removed.Newcomers can not understand why the ability of the horse is not paramount as in all other equestrian disiplines.Changes need to be made. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2010 |
British Carriagedriving is very much alive. There are just a few ducks that we have to get in line first. As I have mentioned once or twice on this forum previously, the name change is part of a "Bigger Plan". Once the various initiatives have been formulated into one all encompassing strategy, they will be publicised. In the meantime, please grasp any chance that you get to speak to people from outside our membership about our sport. Any talks given to Pony Clubs, Riding Clubs etc are moving us in the right direction. It’s all about awareness. If you are giving a talk and would like some material such as DVDs, PowerPoint presentations etc, please email me and I’ll see what I can do. | ||
| Daniel naprous Member Username: Daniel_naprous Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2013 |
I was there when the name of British carriage driving was voted on and passed, as i see it, the council have the right to implicate the change when they see best fit, taking into account the money it will cost to change the name , they are waiting for the best opportunity. this is how i see it And the name change is to be{ BC } as carriage driving is to be one word | ||
| Harry Luff Member Username: Equevent Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2007 |
Hi not sure if it is the reason or if anyone had done the research into this first before the meeting at which you all voted but the initials BC are already used in this country for one of our most supported and successful sports which is BRITISH CYCLING! If we wish to try to us BC i think it would not be welcomed by UK SPORT or other sports organisations who's help we need to promote this dying sport and would not encourage other sports to want to see us do well. I dont see that a name change will make any difference to our sport till we can find a common frame work upon which to build the sport and work together to achieve this. | ||
| Georgina Hunt Member Username: Georgina Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2007 |
OK - what have i missed? I was at the meeting and felt sure i'd voted for BC... | ||
| Mike Watts Member Username: Mikew Post Number: 123 Registered: 01-2007 |
However the motion put forward by the council and accepted was to allow the name change to British Carriage Driving (BCD). This seems very odd to me since James Broome proposed BC British Carriagedriving. I was surprised the council did not support him. Still, at present the formal motion allows BCD only, not BC. Of course it may just be incompetence ... Couldn't even get a name right? | ||
| Martyn Willis Member Username: Martynw Post Number: 51 Registered: 02-2007 |
Di that'S my understanding as well but would have thought they would have used the momentum of the discussion and vote to move on. There will be few better opportunities to launch the new brand once the season starts. | ||
| Di Hayes Member Username: Queenshrew Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2011 |
As i understood it we voted to give our support to the change of name as and when the commitee thinks fit to do so. | ||
| Martyn Willis Member Username: Martynw Post Number: 50 Registered: 02-2007 |
Back in November we had a great debate and a vote to change the name of the association. Was there any point in it? We have had Olympia and a New Year both golden opportunities to trumpet the new beginning. So when are we if we are going to re-brand? |