| Author | Message | ||
     Margo Smith Member Username: Margosmith Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2012 |
Can we not have the discussion 'post box' next to the latest post, rather than the first post? All the discussion about the name seems a little pointless for a sport where people are there to enjoy themselves (and do their best). I think we need to spend the time, money and words promoting and supporting prospective new members and sponsors, or giving event organisers a realistic sum for the time and effort put into holding an event. Or, perhaps looking at the geography of the events currently held? Does the name really matter? It does to some, but it's the sort that really matters and giving those currently involved as much encouragement, training and support as possible. | ||
| chris manger Member Username: Chrismanger Post Number: 21 Registered: 01-2012 |
I have been driving for over twenty years but only recently taken up driving trials. To be honest if I hadn't known someone who had already competed and encouraged me I would have never taken it up. Regardless of the Name/Brand we need to find more ways to promote the sport and encourage people. This is more important at grass roots as i think people feel intimidated by all the harness, carriages and it's only for the professionals. I felt a bit like a fish out of water at my first meet | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2008 |
guy the idea, that if people are interested in the sport they will get involved... how will they? you really have to know someone in the sport to be able to get involved. and how will all the potential new members that have horses but have never heard of driving get involved? i would have never have heard of driving, let alone decide to drive a single or a team, if i didnt know linda. so how do you propose we get are sport out there and more people knowing about are sport and wanting to start. yes most people will have started with club events, but changing the name and re branding the sport hopefully will get more people taking up carriage driving, more people starting to compete at club events, and in the long term more people driving at nationals. | ||
| Di Hayes Member Username: Queenshrew Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2011 |
Could we link our sport to Costa Coffee please ? We would get loads of new members then i,m sure ! Yum | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 73 Registered: 03-2008 |
Couldn't agree more, Guy. I bet practically everyone who drives at Nationals started with a club! The clubs are the heart of HDT, as is Indoor Driving, another good starting point for Newbies. | ||
| Guy Benest Member Username: Guybenest Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2010 |
looking at the number of posts, this obviously is important to a great number of people. Personally, I can't see changing the name making a scrap of difference to the sport as far as sponsors, spectators or new members are concerned. If people are interested in driving be is for competition or pleasure, they are going to find out about it locally. Perhaps more support at local club level to encourage "grass roots" trials driving is the answer. The stronger the local clubs, the better the feed into Nationals and so ad infinitum | ||
| Louise Hodgson Member Username: Louisehodgson Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2011 |
Developing the branding is an important part of developing our sport and we must never underestimate the power of brand recognition. BS, BD, BE and even BV are just that, recognised brands within the equestrian world, far more so than BHDTA. I can only talk from experience within the industry I work in, catering and retail. We operate both “in-house” brands and also as a franchisee for Costa and where we have introduced Costa coffee within our own branded outlets we see an increase of sales of between 15% and 20%. Yes we still have to deliver a quality cup of coffee, with quality service and at reasonable prices (some may say extortionate!) but by putting the Costa brand above our door we attract greater footfall. Due to the success we have had with Costa we are now embarking on a franchise with WHSmith and we expect to see the same increase in our retail shops. By associating ourselves with BS, BD and BE we will attract far more interest from people who recognise these brands as well established equestrian sports with high standards of horse welfare and who offer competition for all levels of ability. How can this have a negative effect? There are numerous ways of attracting new members to the sport, branding is only one; a structured and consolidated approach will ensure we achieve our objectives. There have been many great suggestions on the forum so let’s hope some of these form part of the bigger plan. If members agree to the name change then the timing of this would be crucial and there may be some issues which could be addressed prior to the change and subsequent publicity. After all, we want to keep those who chose to look in our “shop window”!! | ||
| James Binns Member Username: Jamesb Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2008 |
Very well said Mike, could not have said it better bravo!!! | ||
| Mike Watts Member Username: Mikew Post Number: 118 Registered: 01-2007 |
Couldn't we spend our time and attention better on plans for the sport rather than debating the name? A new name might follow on from a new direction, or a new presentation of what we do, but the name itself does little. Aren't we putting the cart before the horse - or possibly renaming the Titanic as it heads for an iceberg. Might work, probably not. If we must spend time on the name at least let's not change it to one that might make us look old fashioned, illiterate and arrogant. British Carriagedriving - BC - "carriage driving" sounds Victorian and stuffy. At least "driving trials" sounds like a sport, might be exciting. - "Carriagedriving" looks like a typo, or a failed attempt to be modern c1970. BC stands for 2000 years ago to many people. - "carriage driving" embraces things the association doesn't do - e.g. showing, scurry, commercial driving, unless the BHDTA is making a bid for these? If an organisation called the Royal Yachting Association - RYA - can administer a couple of successful Olympic disciplines (dinghy racing and windsurfing) doesn't that show there's little in a name? We have successful hdt clubs variously called ..Carriage Driving.. (Eacdg, SCDA), ..Horse Driving Trials (NEDTL,MDTG) and ..Harness Club - their various names matter little, it's what they do and how they present themselves that counts. Let's put aside talking about the name and use all this energy to develop the sport. these are my personal opinions! | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Member Username: Nicolettepurple Post Number: 53 Registered: 05-2008 |
I just want to say I think the young members that have posted on this thread, have had some really valid points and are talking a lot of sense, as they are the future of driving, perhaps they should play a part in "driving" it forward. They won't be change adverse and will ahve some current ideas that may appeal to the next generation of drivers. Nicolette | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2007 |
A logo does not have to cost the earth it just requires an imagination. Domain names can be bought for as little as £3.99 + VAT so not a massive outlay. Mary is employed by the BHDTA already so I would imagine that any additional work that this entails is already paid for within her salary. Letters and envelopes can all be printed using mail merge so not a huge outlay in time and, an email can be sent to an infinite amount of recipients at the press of a button. Changing the website does take time but could probably be done in bite size pieces, other than the logo and new (if approved) name. The cost and effort for clubs to change web details is minimal in the whole scheme of things and the paperwork the BHDTA currently hold can be used up during a transitional period. As an organisation I would imagine stationery is printed as and when required so we shouldn’t have to waste any stock or make a huge investment for new stock. There are costs involved in anything and everything we do BUT if we continue to do nothing where is our sport going to end up? Sometimes change can be for the good but standing still gets you nowhere. Having followed this thread with great interest I shall go to the conference with my mind open and receptive with no pre conceived ideas. Bring on the presentation James. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2008 |
yes it may take a couple of years before people would be competing at nationals, but there will always be more people competing at the bottom end of the sport than the top, like a pyramid structure. attracting more people to the sport, which hopefully the new initiatives will do, will have positive benefits for the whole of driving. attracting people to the sport could be left to the BDS and then people can chose are more exciting side of carriage driving, but there will always be a bias by the bds people to keep them in the showing side of things. if we can attract people into the general sport of carriage driving then we are able to convince people to stay with us. on the cost issue. the true cost may actually be NEGATIVE. if successful the benefits to all stakeholders within the sport may be far greater than any initial cost. attracting one more member may bring £148 to the bhdta, but you are forgetting about all the additional benefits. they will buy harnesses and carriages which can only lead to those companies being able to invest in more innovation and new technologies. they will pay entry fees, meaning clubs and national events are better supported, which can only help ensuring the survival of events and help pay for additional activities to be put on during events. greater numbers will make us more attractable to sponsors, which can only help to ensure 3 section marathons remain, as there will be more money within the sport, making these events financially viable. they may buy horses from existing members. there are endless amounts of economic benefits that can be achieved through attracting new people to the sport, not just membership fees!! | ||
| Louise McCutcheon Member Username: Louisemcc Post Number: 30 Registered: 03-2007 |
Sorry James: "The proposed cost of the name change will be met if we can attract ONE new full member". That's £148. To change the name costs £100 for Companies House (plus VAT?). Plus the cost of the domain names already purchased. Plus the estimated 50+ hours of Vic's time to update the website. Plus time and effort spent designing new logos. Plus Mary's time to notify the rest of the world we live in that the brand has changed. Plus the cost to every Affiliated Club to change their own websites and literature to reflect the change. That's just the costs I can think of. We have many members who will know from experience the real costs of changing a name. £148 will not cover it. | ||
| Christine Twigg Member Username: Rosibob Post Number: 94 Registered: 02-2008 |
I agree with Janet - there are a number of steps in someone's driving career before the name BC or BHDTA becomes important (if it ever does) - firstly people need to want to drive, just like people want to do any other 'activity' (as opposed to 'sport')whether it be equestrian or otherwise. They then may decide on trials or private driving or scurrying etc etc at which point the sport becomes important and they may join their local club. There then has to be some incentive to move up to nationals and join as full members of BHDTA (or BC). That might be ambition, a desire to compete at good venues or just a natural progression.I don't think in any of that the name matters, but in these tough times what they get out of a national must surely be more important than ever. If changing the name brings us in line with other disciplines then lets do it - but lets fight to keep the things that make our sport great - and our name isn't one of those things. Lets worry about the proposals to do away with section A and the walk, lets worry about nationals becoming 2 day events and so exactly what clubs have to offer at a much cheaper cost and lets worry about the fact that we are losing national events quicker than we are gaining new ones and ask ourselves why. I for one would not travel the length of the country for a two day national with a shortened marathon when I can pop over the Pennines for a brilliant club event at a third of the price. James has stuck his head above the parapet here and at the end of the day he is there because the membership voted him in - so perhaps we need to trust him and put our energies into fighting for our sport, not for a name. | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 82 Registered: 03-2007 |
Something that concerns me is that new people coming into the sport will probably be a couple of years before they are competing at Nationals so I doubt they would they join 'BC'? We need to recruit new 'BC' members from existing club members and if they aren't currently competing at National level why would they want to join 'BC'? For Insurance? Maybe but I suspect it's going to need more than that. I know it wouldn't be enough to attract me. We have a great club (one of many in the UK) and we have a growing membership. At £30 for the year we get reduced entry fees and a good calendar of fairly local events for all levels including training days. When clubs can offer such great value for money what is it going to take to persuade drivers that the higher level is well worth the jump? | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2010 |
The very grand sounding "Bigger Plan" is basically a series of initiatives to get more people into the sport and to make progression through the sport more appealing. None of the initiatives are at a stage that we can give more details because they haven't been through the correct committees etc yet so it would not be correct to publish something that hasn't passed through these channels. The proposed cost of the name change will be met if we can attract ONE new full member. | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2007 |
Thank you James. I am disappointed that you cannot reveal the "bigger plan", surely the members have the right to know the direction you propose the "new" BHDTA goes. I was not asking for the exact cost of change, but it stands to reason that if the Council consider the cost "not prohibitive" they must have some idea of the cost of change. Knowledge of this cost is vital so that members may vote fully aware of the financial consequences whether it means increased membership fees or entry fees. Whatever the cost the members have to pay. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2010 |
Fiona - What a rubbish post for a free hat! Geoff - As you are aware, the system of proxy votes is a little confusing. On the proxy form that I have in front of me it reads, "If you choose the Chairman of the Meeting to act as your proxy please return this form to the BHDTA, East Overhill... at least 96 hours prior to the meeting." Therefore, it would seem that it's only if you want to elect Jock to cast your vote do you need to send in the proxy form to the office 96 hours before the meeting. AS FAR AS I AM AWARE the voting will be done by forms handed out at the start of the meeting. Each form will require a membership number. Once everyone has had their say, the papers will be handed in and counted, together with the Proxy forms that have been received in the office and are taken to the AGM on behalf of members that can't make the date. I BELIEVE that this will be in accordance with all laws and statutory requirements as set out by Companies House. By the meeting, we will have had legal advice on the matter and will adhere to the advice given. Please don't think that this decision has been rushed into. It was first brought up at my first Council meeting approximately 12 months ago. It has been discussed, at length, by Council. Before you ask why the members weren't informed until now, there was a process of due diligence that had to be carried out so that we could ensure that any name that went through would not run us into problems. There is still a little of this work to do which is why it is impossible to give an exact cost. I would just like to add that the Council are elected volunteers that give up a huge amount of time and money in order to do the best we can for the sport. We do this for what we believe is the good of the sport. There is no hidden agenda. | ||
| Fiona Powell Member Username: Fionap Post Number: 187 Registered: 03-2007 |
I claim my free cap! | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 11 Registered: 04-2007 |
James initially we were told that all proxy forms had to be in the office 96 hours before conference started...quote"To be eligible to be included in the poll, you must make sure that your proxy form has been returned to the Office at least 96 hours prior to the commencement of the Annual General Meeting". What happens to the proxy forms taken to the conference as you suggest? Who is to count and hold the proxy forms? On another point the Chairman states that re-naming costs will not be prohibitive, it follows that he knows the cost, can the members be told? It is clear that there is considerable confusion, not only amongst the members but amongst the Council members. For instance Council initially announced that Proxies could not vote on a show of hands at the Conference. Several of us pointed out that this would contravene the 2006 Companies Act and therefore illegal. It was then announced that the Chairman would call a poll at the meeting. I feel that this change has been rushed in without thorough research and consultation. Surely it would be better to leave the matter on one side until ALL the members are made aware of costs and the bigger plan you mentioned for the first time earlier today. After all the BHDTA belongs to the members. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2010 |
The writer of the 100th post will win a baseball cap. The logo on the front will depend on what happens on Saturday. Please folks, if you can't make it, give your vote to someone that is going to the AGM via the proxy form sent out with the papers. I'd love it if you all supported the name change, but ultimately the one thing that the proposal has already done is to get more people actively involved in thinking of the best way forward for the sport. This can only be good for the future of our sport. I'm not going to repeat what has already been written on these pages, but in a nutshell, the name change will help us to promote the sport to the potential new members that our sport badly needs. Please don't let tradition stand in the way of progress and innovation. If we are to remain a viable sport, we must move with the times. "Discontent is the first necessity of progress." Thomas A. Edison | ||
| Diane Phillips Member Username: Dianephillips Post Number: 34 Registered: 06-2010 |
A slightly light hearted note to this discussion. I have just met a new colleague at work. Not only does she know what horse driving trials is, she competes!! Maybe we are "getting out there" after all. | ||
| Amber O'Neill Member Username: Fjordslave Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2007 |
Well said Nicolette, you beat me to it, how high a website is on Google or any other search engine depends on how much work the webmaster does on search engine optimisation, whether it is the same initials a British Cycling is irrelevant as people will be reading what it says under the title too and click the link which suits them. Also who says we can't be top of google it's not that hard to do!! Emma | ||
| Nicolette Hughes Member Username: Nicolettepurple Post Number: 52 Registered: 05-2008 |
With regards to web site placings and what google will say about BC, this is easily controlled with someone who knows what they are doing with regard to web site optimisation, key words, H1 and H2 tags and the meta data behind the scenes. It is fairly easy to make sure when BC is googled the right info comes up, just as in the cycling listing. Doing something is far better than doing nothing and I think consultation is key to get member buy in, but this can't be allowed to take too long as the situation may worsen in the mean time. I hope James has lots of useful people on his side, good luck! Nicolette | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 81 Registered: 03-2007 |
But hasn't that been the case for donkey's years with the BDS? People start off going to little rallies, drive outs, dressage and cones competitions, then they decide they want more of a thrill and come into trials? I'm sure we would all love to hear more about the 'bigger plan' - is that going to be unveiled at the Conference too? Bring your membership alongside guys - include them and involve them in these changes. I'm sure you will get more support as we all want to see our sport survive and thrive. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2010 |
I would just add that the name change is not an isolated idea, it is part of a bigger plan. Jane, you are correct in saying that a name change, on it's own, will not attract any new members. However, it will make any future promotions more successful as the message will be much clearer for people outside the sport. Mike's comparison with cycling is good. I'm no cyclist but I bet that the BMX riders rarely perform in a velodrome, and those riders rarely enter a Tour de France. Essentially, they are all very different sports, they just all happen to ride a bike. I realise that we don't speak on behalf of the other driven disciplines, but there's no reason that we shouldn't be the first place that people look if they have an interest in carriage driving. Then, as they get more into the sport, they will learn all the different activities that they can get involved in. | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 37 Registered: 06-2007 |
Poor comparison Mike. BMX riding (an olympic discipline!) is not the best kept secret in the bike-riding world (as competitive carriage driving is to the rest of the equestrian world), nor is cycling a minority sport like ours. If you google 'British Cycling' you will see that their web entry immediately lists all the different forms of competitive cycling available from road racing to cyclo-cross. Our google entry is not quite so edifying. I'm not against re-branding per se, I just doubt that it will do what is needed, which is to bring in more members. You kind of make my point for me which is - should we become BC, when we are googled will our web entry direct people to Pleasure driving? Endurance driving? Show driving? Scurry driving? And finally to what we do, as the British Cycling website does for their interested parties? | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2008 |
by the sound of all these examples of 2 letter abbreviations of different sports. we are the only sport not to have one. Does British cycling explain to people what BMX Riders do? or road, or track cycling? it appears until you get into bike riding the sport does not explain its different elements. but they still are commonly known and do well by having a name that does not 'exactly describe there sports' | ||
| Jane Smith Member Username: Smithies Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2009 |
Crikey! Took ages to get to the bottom of this thread! Just googled it Jane - you are quite right. | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 36 Registered: 06-2007 |
Actually, I thought BC was British Cycling? | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 24 Registered: 07-2007 |
Thanks for that James, but are we trying to be a figurehead for all types of driving ie getting newcomers interested then promoting the particular area they may be interested in ,scurrying, showing, trials ,or are we trying to promote just our Driving Trials. We can't be "Jack of all trades master of none" | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 14 Registered: 02-2010 |
Duncan, the logo on the front page is the existing logo. It's been the same since the 1970s (Mr Strachan, perhaps you have the exact date?). Marilyn, from my post of 5th November, "Only once people get into the sport, as Clare Iveagh points out, do they recognise the different elements of the sport." Therefore, the most important and challenging job is to get them into our sport in the first place. Once they have an interest in "driving", they can then be made aware of the different activities that are available to them. If we differentiate right from the beginning, the message is so complicated that they don't bother. British Carriagedriving, to a newcomer, says what we do (we drive carriages). Once / if they get involved, they will have the motivation to look into the different elements. | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2007 |
How will the people who have no or little knowledge of our sport be able to differentiate easily between B C -British Carriagedriving, and BDS British Driving Sociaty . Great confusion for all, sponsors, and new members. Somebody from council please explain. | ||
| Duncan Seth-Smith Member Username: Sakofox Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2007 |
You are correct, in the dressage and cones phase,I think of driving trials as marathon and obstacles, I should have been more specific and I withdraw my comment. | ||
| Kathleen Upsall Member Username: Katastrophy Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2008 |
Are you sure Duncan? ;) [IMG]http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz36/katastrophy1984/D68E82DE-A8C3-4B0C-BBD0- A25193FE3B6F-148-000000032F9A5606.jpg[/IMG] I've seen a fair few! :D And I'm not sure that a carriage wheel would go with the logo without going over the top of the picture (spokes) whereas the full collar frames the logo nicely and keeps that bit of tradition that we all try to give a nod to- even us newbies! | ||
| Duncan Seth-Smith Member Username: Sakofox Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2007 |
If the Logo on the front page is the new BHDTA logo. Why have you kept the full collar with HDT. Driving Trials don't use a full collar? | ||
| Guy Benest Member Username: Guybenest Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2010 |
Just a thought, but will all the local clubs be expected to change their names? Will NEDTL become NED, will CHDTG expected to become CD? Good job there isn't a club in Verwood! Seriously though, not everyone has the budget to rebrand and lots of local clubs have invested funds in club merchandise and logo's | ||
| Jackie Herd Member Username: Mackie Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2008 |
With all this talk of change and moving forward perhaps you should take another look at "Driving Trials - A Time for change" from 2010! https://vimeo.com/16440864 or click on Video Clips at the bottom of the home page and select it! | ||
| Rita Bundock Member Username: Roanmare Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2007 |
Amber how right you are, such wise words from such a young head. The time for the youngster is here, it is time for us oldies to loosen the reins. We can't go on for ever. There has GOT to be more young blood on the active side to promote carriage driving regardless if it is driving trials, showing, scurry or even wagon racing. James is doing a fantastic job trying to drag driving trials into the 21st century but he can't do it alone. A more descriptive name may help but more input from members and competitors WILL help. All events need sponsorship and this will only come if the public and more importantly the sponsoring companies know more about carriage driving. Like all good things, it will only work and continue to work IF the input is there. It is for all carriage drivers to get out there and promote the sport in any way possible. | ||
| Amber O'Neill Member Username: Fjordslave Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2007 |
I also have to agree with Jo's previous comments, that the issues with our sport are more related to our current lack of publicity rather than a name change. Joanna is not the only proactive young driver, I have successfully gained 3 major sponsors which I have kept for 3 years. I regularly write to my local paper, local equestrian magazine and keep a website and a blog up to date. I also write on behalf of the young drivers to both carriage driving magazines, if more drivers were proactive in promoting our sport perhaps more people would have heard of it? Many other young drivers are also aware of the power of the media and receive a good response and as a result are now attracting sponsors and therefore more interest into the sport. I feel we should all be directing our energy into doing more of the above rather than worrying too much about a name change. It's what we are that matters and what we chose to do about it. A name change alone will not change too much, it is how we plan on following it up that is important. | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 22 Registered: 07-2007 |
Over the last couple of days I have been asking both horsey and non horsey patients, nurses, office staff what BHDTA conjoured up to them most said isn't that what the Duke does! Similarly the same with SJ all had heard of show jumping and knew it involved jumping fences, but surprisingly many didn't know there was much difference between Dressage and Eventing or if they did dressage was ponsing on the spot and eventing was galloping across the country! I again asked at random what British Carriage Driving ...B C conjoured up in their minds, the majority said Ben Hur , Charriot Racing and Gladiators !!, B C. Conjuring up meaning Before Christ !!!! Being very cynical why do we have to decide now and in such a hurry about changing our name!!! Are we buying the cart before the horse!! It seems to have come at a time when there has been talk of cutting out the Walk Section, Shortening Marathons or loosing them altogether. Just possibly a quick twizzle round a field and then driving the obstacles, hardly Driving Trials, BUT describing Carriage Driving!, Is this a way of loosing our sport as we know it and succumbing it to the Old Days of what we used to know , being hoodwinked into changing the name and then having to change the sport to fit. Our old sponsors of Lexus, Cragghoppers,Beneficial Bank,Clarendon Boots to name a few never objected to our name BHDTA or suggested to changing it to improve our image!!! Give us members more time and facts to make an unbiased and sensible substantiated decision. Or is more going on that we members don't know about! | ||
| Lyn Price Member Username: Lyn_price Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2011 |
Riding clubs are very receptive to a demo - I am doing one this sunday evening at Lee Vally Riding Club, Hackney London on long reining to improve the riding and driving horse. Finishing with a short bit on driving itself. I did one four years ago and it was well received. | ||
| Kathleen Upsall Member Username: Katastrophy Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2008 |
Dianne, I'd happily volunteer to take my turnout to shows, as I am a bit of a showing fiend (though currently driving at novice level... Just!) I'll be there anyway with my young horse under saddle. as he's about to be sent to Andrew May for breaking to drive, all I need to remember is carriage and harness- horse is already gleaming an ready to go, and if I need to pop my current HDT Pony on the box as well, that's no biggie either. I'm happy to hurtle about obstacles and cones to give a demo... And spend a couple of hours on a stand And I'm sure many more will as well. I always remember the BDS stand at Lowther, but never a BHDTA one... For the record, James Broom is the reason that I got interested in driving really... I was at the Showjumping unaffiliated champs of GB with my jumping mare when he was first starting out (I believe with Fred bojangles... Though I may be wrong!) and he was out exercising the pony amongst all of us SJ crowd- the pony went beautifully, he stood nicely and chatted to anyone at Cricklands that asked about driving, and was enthusiastic about it in a way I hadn't seen before- it took another year and a half to find myself an instructor!! As an ambassador for introducing the sport to a wider audience (and dare I say a younger one!!) I couldn't think of many people better. | ||
| Alysha Lane Member Username: Alysha Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2010 |
Hello, Now I’ve not read every single post so my apologies if this has already been said. With regards to getting new comers to the sport I think a lot of the problem is the initial financial outlay people need to get started. Its very daunting. I’m 18 and have been driving for about 4 years but have only had my own turn out for a year and a half and have only just started competing. But when you go and spectator at an outdoor event to get a feel for it although everyone is very welcoming there are no two wheeled carts at all. (I know four wheelers are much safer and more stable) Now at the time I only had a two wheeler. Although it was three phase with a back step and extending axel, I still felt like I was going to look ‘out of place’ if I turned up to an event with it. So the point I am trying to make is why not have a class for newcomers (or anyone) specifically for people with two wheeled vehicles, where you don’t need an extending axel or back step? That way they would all be evenly matched in respect to the speed they could get round the obstacles. This would open the doors to people who just drive for pleasure in the cart that jim made them. And make it a lot more accessible. As long as it was safe they could have a go and get the bug? With regards to the name change my first thoughts were why bother. But after thinking about it to a horse rider BHDTA means nothing. Its took me about year to memories it off by heart. So something less long winded and straight to the point would attract sponsors and new members. Provided people put in the effort to get our sport out there to others. Sorry if that seems like babble to you all just giving my opinion! | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 7 Registered: 06-2007 |
I note that this topic has generated a lot of varied responses and has covered other aspects needing attention However,. I wonder if Council has applied psychology in releasing this proposed change of name just before the AGM. It appears to me that they may have achieved their object of diverting members attention from, in my opinion, much more critical aspects. I wonder if name changing is similar to polishing the brass nameplate on the building whilst the foundations of the building may be crumbling. These foundations are, I think, sound finances, growing membership, and an adherence to the basic philosophy of Horse Driving Trials. No business plan should depend on Sponsorship as a reliable, fundamental source of Income. ( I hope members realise that Sponsorship is generally focused on individual events and does not contribute to the Administration of our Sport) | ||
| Diane Phillips Member Username: Dianephillips Post Number: 32 Registered: 06-2010 |
This has turned into a good healthy debate which I'm pleased that James has contributed to so we know that the association is at least listening to our thoughts. With regard to getting our sport "out there" this will always be a difficult one. It needs someone to find the outlets to put on a demonstration and to coordinate "volunteers" to bring horses, carriages, equipment nearly always at their own cost unless a sponsor can be found. Any volunteers? Probably not! Olympia is great but it doesn't really sum our sport up. It is the top end of our sport but how many people can realistially expect to get to that level. I too use the phrase "what Prince Philip does" to describe what I do which probably doesn't help the elitest view. | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 35 Registered: 06-2007 |
Goodness me, one has to scroll down an awful long way to add to this thread now! It's heartening to see that so many people feel strongly enough to comment, whichever side of the fence they come down on. I don't want to repeat the comments made in my earlier post but I feel they remain relevant. However, I did conduct a little 'straw poll' amongst my non-driving horsey friends asking them what the term 'carriage driving' conjured up and these are the responses I received: 1. 19th century foggy London town. 2. I think people think of big old coaches and teams of horses.(two people responded thus). 3. I think of Robin Hood and his merry men waiting to hijack one. 4. A pair of horses with a cart in the show ring 5. I imagine it to mean a coach being driven in a cowboy and indian film. 6. A big carriage with more than one horse pulling it. 7. Gypsies 8. sulky trotting 9. Old London Coaches 10. Hackneys in the show ring 11. The Queen being driven down a racecourse 12. Old people in a cart holding the traffic up I haven't cherry-picked these answers, this is how they came. Olympia will be great - exciting and well received as it was last year and many of us will be there. But I doubt on it's own it will appear remotely relevant or attainable to the majority of the audience - Jane Smith is spot on with that one. I helped out when Cavewood Productions filmed at Holker and my sound guy for the day was an extremely non-horsey chap. He was amazed to see people doing it with single horses and ponies; his comment to me was that he had seen 'odd things on tv' with 'guys driving four horses' but dismissed it as being a sport done only by 'rich blokes with plenty of time and money on their hands'. We need to bolster the sport from the bottom up and encourage new people, not preach to the already converted! If we don't get new people coming through, it may be in danger of eventually drying up and blowing away and none of us wants that to happen. Like Rosemary, I'm not a member and instead have found other outlets for my driving interest. If I was convinced that rebranding would solve any of the current problems I could get behind it but I'm not sure it will - although I appreciate that is not necessarily a valid reason for not trying and would certainly not want to belittle James' efforts in this direction. However, if the logo is 'being designed as we speak' doesn't that inform that the decision has already been made? I hope that as many members as possible will attend the AGM to voice their opinions or else all the thoughts on this forum may be for nothing. If we have to change the name then so be it but please, please, not British 'CarriageDriving' - it's not what we are or what we do. | ||
| Patti Atkinson Member Username: Pattia Post Number: 51 Registered: 03-2007 |
Rosemary - could you contact me - I dont have your contact details. My email is pattixxxx@wits-end.myzen.co.uk Just remove the xxxx's | ||
| Rosemary Neale Member Username: Rosemaryn Post Number: 22 Registered: 03-2007 |
Hi I have been following these posts with a great deal of interest and not a little deja vue! I think in 2006 or maybe a little before I facilitated a meeting of the great and the good in the BHDTA to do just what Lyn Price is suggesting. That very constructive meeting generated many good suggestions (albeit railroaded by our then illustrious Chairman, the late Lord Onslow) but what happened to the report - buried in the paperwork of the BHDTA and why? My feeling was that it required people to change their attitude towards 'their sport' so that the clique who ran it were no longer calling the shots. I hesitate to put my head above the parapet on this in fear of engendering the same response and vilification that it received before but as I am no longer a member I would suggest that if you do go ahead with a root and branch reveiw, you contact as many past members as you can and ask why they are past members? What is it which has driven them away from the sport they loved? Many of us are still actively involved in carriage driving but have found different outlets for our passion and I for one would have continued with the BHDTA had not my attempts to help been met with such hostility. My partner and I were happy to sponsor events and obstacles but each time we did we didn't even receive a letter of thanks! I know Steve Jarman of carriagehire.com had the same kind of experience and so he stopped his involvement. Have things changed yet - sadly I don't think so as I talk to current competitors and the impression I get is one of hopelessness in the face of refusal to change. If you want the sport to be alongside the other equestrian disciplines then it needs to up its game and become much much more professional - proper training for judges, a better website, a committee prepared to stick by its own rules and not be partisan, etc etc I could go on but I hope this has done enough to stir things up a bit and I will judge you by the response I get - if people phone me and want to know more then great, if you start name calling and vilify me then I rest my case! My feeling is that James is doing a great job and deserves your support and help (he was present at the meeting I referred to) but I don't see a lot of that on this forum. | ||
| Tim Bradford Member Username: Timbradford Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2008 |
What a good debate and some very interesting contributions. In my experience no one has heard of HDT, the most common response is "Oh what Prince Philip does",I appreciate that changing the name to "What Prince Philip Does" may be tricky!I applaud James's efforts to move the association forward . | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 78 Registered: 03-2007 |
A couple of months ago I ran an evening demonstration for the local Pony Club during their summer camp. Twenty five children and some parents came and had two hours of informative fun which has led to me doing a serious of coaching days throughout the winter months. This month I am having ten children and four ponies to learn how to long-rein properly so they can school from the ground. Parents are keen to take this further as they can keep ponies fit for their children and also get some fun out of them for themselves. Quite a few have asked about costs of setting up and breaking the ponies to harness. This is something all of our UKcc coaches could be doing to bring our sport out to the rest of the equestrian world. Many Pony Clubbers have horse boxes and outgrown ponies and would relish the thought of a new challenge. Riding clubs will be my next target but realistically it will be a few years before any new members are likely to appear at National events - clubs are the entry level and they will benefit first. Regarding BE becoming more popular, I think this is not due to the name change, it's due to the fact that BE lowered their class standards to make it more accessable to a wider range of abilities with the BE 80, 90 and 100 levels. | ||
| Joanna Bassett Member Username: Jbassett Post Number: 7 Registered: 06-2012 |
Emails jbas sett1@hotmail.co.uk just take out the spaces, if you want to talk about anything | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2010 |
I should have also mentioned that I am full of admiration for Joanna's initiative to get the word of Carriage Driving out to the wider public. It would be great to chat with you, Joanna, about any ideas that you had to promote our sport. It would also be great to have stands at the County Shows. There is obviously the issue of budget, but the biggest challenge is finding volunteers to man the stands. If there is anyone reading that would be interested in manning a stand for a day or two, please email me directly. Additionally, if anyone would like to contribute time and effort towards promoting our sport, I'd love to hear from you. | ||
| Jane Smith Member Username: Smithies Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2009 |
I asked a few of my non-horsey friends what they thought carriage driving was ..... few knew; one notably thought it was horses pulling a stagecoach. I am still sitting on the obstacle regarding re-branding, but it seems to me that despite what we decide to call Carriage Driving we need to raise awareness that there is such a thing in the first place!. Jo's point that we have a ready made forum in the County Show world is a good one - Olympia goers probably think you need to drive a team! | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2010 |
Two great posts today. Thank you Lester and Joanna for taking the time to read all the posts and comment accordingly. Sports Driving is a good name, and was thought of by Amanda Saville (now Nesbit) approximately 10 years ago. Since the name change that Amanda suggested to the sport was not adopted, Amanda used the name for a fantastic charity in Scotland that she runs. Her website is www.sportsdriving.co.uk. We therefore, couldn't be British Sports Driving. The other restraints are that, so that we remain in line with the other equestrian disciplines (who we see as a great source of potential future members), we need to have a name that can be shortened to two letters. BE, BD, BE are the existing examples. It is also essential that we start with the word "British" so that we are recognised as the leaders of the SPORT in this Country. The problem that I see using a new term, such as Extreme Driving, Equestrian Driving, Competition Carriage Driving etc, is simply that we are just creating more confusion. Driving Trials has been around since the 1970s and unfortunately very few people outside of our sport know what it is. At least they all know what Carriage Driving actually means. Carriage Driving may be thought of as old fashioned, but when people from outside our sport watch Olympia, Addington, Lowther (returning in 2013), Merrist Wood etc, they refer to us as Carriage Driving. Only once people get into the sport, as Clare Iveagh points out, do they recognise the different elements of the sport. With regard to a new logo, one is being designed as we speak. I won’t give too much away but it will show our sport to be exciting and modern. It will also have a similar “feel” to BD, BE and BS. If the proposal does go through, I will accompany the new name wherever possible. | ||
| Joanna Bassett Member Username: Jbassett Post Number: 6 Registered: 06-2012 |
Having just read through the whole thread to try to make sure I don't respond completely off topic, I may well be off topic as the debate seems to have sparked off so many questions. For what it is worth though, as James says 'I would also urge you to consider the brand of our sport OUTSIDE of our sport.' - I would be strongly against a rebrand involving the word 'Carriage' as this immediately sparks off very old fashioned ideas and does nothing to attract a younger audience, I would go so far as to suggest it actually suggests a very limited target audience. I would also suggest that something along the lines of 'British Sport Driving' is too vague, and will lead to new members being ultimately disappointed when they turn up on the show ground with their rally cars, to discover they actually need a horse and carriage. I do like the idea of something along the lines of ' Equestrian Sport Driving' which I believe Martin suggested- as it suggests some element of speed and competition, or possibly ' Extreme Horse Driving' though this could be promising a little too much. I understand this post is about rebranding in terms of the name change, but I would be interested in how we intend on following this up, and perhaps the figures of how many new members we are currently attracting and what age bracket they are in- This may well be available somewhere, I am probably being ignorant. What I would suggest about promoting the future of the sport is that we perhaps consider who we are targeting and make a considerable effort to target them- by which I mean having stands at County Shows, Olympia etc like The Pony Club and some other disciplines do. An obvious target would be parents (mothers in particular) with children to compete but need help exercising the ponies. Here the start up cost is less, as they already have a pony, and they have motivation for driving- to help their children succeed. We also need to make other disciplines more aware of us- ridden dressage ideas are very helpful to us, and i'd suggest the amount of groundwork we do can be beneficial to lower level dressage. We just don't seem to make a huge effort to get our sport recognised. Ive taken it upon myself to do a mini marketing campaign for young drivers (whether anybody supports this, i am not sure) - I found it exceptionally easy to start getting information about our sport published- With one phone call a group of free equestrian magazines distributed around the country agreed to run pieces written by drivers in their area (there were about 6 different magazines covering England) in each issue- In the end I only did one issue due to a total lack of support With one email Horse and Country TV agreed to run a video diary I produced every 2 weeks(or so) on the build up to the junior worlds With one email Horse and Rider UK agreed to run a blog I produce on young drivers each month on the website, I only intended on running it until the worlds but they asked me to carry on, and have offered to display sponsors names. I have put out a plea for people to give me their sponsors logos....I have had one response. Now I have no idea if anyone reads any of what I do, but what I am trying to demonstrate is how easy initial publicity is. Publicity doesn't just attract members, it attracts sponsors. If we want to keep our sport going, and keep it current, I think more work active work needs to be done in this respect. All the equestrian magazines are packed with info on the other disciplines but not ours. We need to create an interest in our sport, approach magazines, perhaps do talks at riding clubs, just generally raise awareness of our sport. I believe a new name will help the sport, but we need much more than that to make it worth while | ||
| Lester Dagge Member Username: Lesterdagge Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2010 |
As a specialist in branding and an active carriage driver, I find this discussion fascinating! I applaud James Broomes endeavours to rebrand the BHDTA to bring it in line with modern contemporary equestrian sports and to elevate it's status to become future-proof as an international and potential Olympic sport. However, what you must appreciate is that the aims of the BHDTA is an elite performance sport. At the top end, this requires costly performance carriages, performance horses, performance harness, skilled performance drivers as well as access to overnight accommodation for a 3 day event necessitating temporary stabling and horse boxes with accommodation, as well as the healthy financial resources to fund this. I know that you can emulate this on a lesser level (us lesser mortals have to) but it still represents the fundamentals of an elite and expensive sport. The proposed name change to British Carriage Driving (a good name) strongly suggests a more generic and all-encompassing organisation which would attract grass roots members, newcomers to driving and those starting out with limited funds. ( but surely is not already facilitated by the British Driving Society?) I can corroborate these beliefs with the work we do at the Dyfed Carriage Club where we attract the very folk that James has identified, the baby boomers, who are no longer able to ride but who wish to remain active in an equestrian sport. Unfortunately these people lack the immediate confidence and funds to start off with performance sport driving, but are nurtured over a period of time into exploring ALL aspects and disciplines of carriage driving which are currently outside the remit of the BHDTA. I suggest that if you wish to extoll and promote the virtues of an elite performance equestrian sport, do exactly that: British Sport Driving! | ||
| Patti Atkinson Member Username: Pattia Post Number: 50 Registered: 03-2007 |
Yes Paul - and the 6th is BHDTA when we are not even using it yet! | ||
| Paul Phillips Member Username: Paulcarriage Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2007 |
Just Googled "Carriage Driving" first up was Carriage Driving Mag, second Driving horses for sale, third British Driving Society | ||
| Clare Iveagh Member Username: Clarei Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2007 |
Sorry Lyn I have only just seen your post... Mine was not directed at yours! | ||
| Clare Iveagh Member Username: Clarei Post Number: 11 Registered: 08-2007 |
In December nearly 80,000 people will watch the World Cup Driving at Olympia. Will those sitting in the audience who know nothing about the sport think they are watching carriage driving or horse driving trials? I think they will remember it as carriage driving.... Hopefully when they get to our web page they will be then forwarded onto a club in their area. With Sheep dog trials and gun dog trials I'm not sure why people feel that trials is so integral to what we do. The difference between club and BDS is a nuance you need to be on the inside to understand. Wouldn't it be great if the people who see driving at county shows and looked up "carriage driving" were routed through our site? I started driving in 2002 I didn't know anything about HDT till 2005 when i went to the carriage fair. Someone has obviously taken the time to think this through, it can do no harm and may do a lot of good come December... | ||
| Lyn Price Member Username: Lyn_price Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2011 |
Some of you may have seen the postings from myself, Patti Atkinson and others under the BHDTA and finances thread. From that Patti and I have been in dialogue with the BHDTA chair. We have advised a membership wide SWOT analysis of the whole sport, a facilitated workshop to develop solutions and a "usable and do-able" action plan to be written from those. We believe it can be completed within a relatively short time frame, by the end of February 13. We are awaiting the commissioning mandate through the council to the effect that if this considerable amount of work is done its recommendations will be taken, fully considered and implemented where practicable. We have a sponsor for the early work and we will both give our professional time for free. In parallel with this process research around PR and marketing of the sport with the likely rebrand is fully complimentary giving an ideal platform for promotional endeavour. I believe we recognise the sport cannot continue as it is so change is inevitable however change need not be painful if it is driven by all those involved; then managed and communicated fully to ALL those stakeholders. If this project goes forward it will be your opportunity to have your say and promote your ideas. | ||
| Daniel Snow Member Username: Snowd Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2011 |
Yes, I always think the logo looks like a dartboard. I’m not convinced that the finances of the BHDTA are “spiralling into bankruptcy”. It doesn’t seem to say that in the accounts. In fact accounts don’t usually tell you very much at all and what they do tell you happened a long time ago. Also the BHDTA accounts tell us nothing about the individual club finances or the national/regional event organisers because those monies are separate. So you cannot infer anything about the state of the sport by looking at the administrative hub ... The sport may be in a real mess but the BHDTA accounts wouldn’t tell you. Probably best wait for the Treasurer’s report. As far as the name change is concerned the theory relies on the existence of a lot of people out there who have never bothered to find out about this “BHDTA” who will suddenly get fired up about the all new “BC” (or “BCD”?) thing that is suddenly all over the horsey press. Again I’m not convinced but what would be the harm? Who is going to leave the BHDTA because it changes its name? And if James and his team are correct we all win. No downside only upside. Go on, give it a spin! | ||
| Chris Laing Member Username: Clanger Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2007 |
Personally, I am not too worried about the name, provided it explains what we do - Driving. What I think is in dire need of a revamp is the logo. If I wore a sweatshirt or baseball cap down the pub, or to a non-driving horsey event, the logo does not show what we do; unless you recognise a full collar and hames, it does not even make it clear that we are an equestrian group. Dressage, Eventing and Showjumping all have an image of a horse doing what they do and use the colours Red, White and Blue. With their logos they don't need to use writing to try and explain themselves. I think that our logo should be revamped along the same lines. If we can get that right, and I hope that James has put some thought into that, I think that will have a bigger positive impact than a name change | ||
| Lorraine Davies Member Username: Leakys1 Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2007 |
Great post Linda. I don't think that our members are scared of change or are so overly attached to the name of this association to find a re-brand 'painful'. BHTA to BE is perfectly exceptable to me - trials or eventing really reflects their sport. As you perfectly put it: 'Debate is healthy and long may it continue but let’s not lose sight of our goals – we need a soundly formulated strategy, one that will not only enable us to survive but to move us forward on strong foundations to a healthy future. If we don’t pull together on this, we might not have a sport at all – by whatever name! Let’s do whatever it takes and be open-minded about change - whether of name or policies.' I personally though, have only seen the suggestion of a change to an inappropriate, vague name without any other ideas of dealing with the major problems we face. There are some very important issues/policies that need to be dealt with to keep our sport alive and kicking. If that INCLUDES a re-brand fine, but at least to something that reflects our sport. | ||
| Linda Rose Member Username: Lindarose Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2010 |
I think it might be a good idea to re-focus on the very important points put very succinctly in an earlier post from Julia (or is it Jeff) Liles to the candidates for council which I quote here:- “From the Accounts it is clear we are an Association in crisis, spiralling so rapidly toward bankruptcy, that should the BHDTA pursue a policy of 'more of the same', you may not even complete your tenure. It now seems we need representatives with the courage and imagination to make radical changes to save our sport, as well as run it. As the BHDTA is at a precipice, unable to attract sponsorship, public support or increase membership, I would appreciate each of your ideas as to how we tackle these issues and avoid collapse, other than the begging bowl.” This might sound like scare-mongering to some but a look through the accounts should persuade any doubters that our association is in serious financial trouble. Change is usually uncomfortable and sometimes painful – but it is blatantly obvious that we are in dire need of change if we are to survive! If a new name is an integral part of it then so be it. It has certainly worked for the main equestrian disciplines. Since moving from the unwieldy handle of BHTA(British Horse Trials Association) has emerged as BE (British Eventing and has gone from strength to strength (there was resistance to that change too but history has proved the point). And our current name is even longer .… and more forgettable! Debate is healthy and long may it continue but let’s not lose sight of our goals – we need a soundly formulated strategy, one that will not only enable us to survive but to move us forward on strong foundations to a healthy future. If we don’t pull together on this, we might not have a sport at all – by whatever name! Let’s do whatever it takes and be open-minded about change - whether of name or policies. | ||
| Lorraine Davies Member Username: Leakys1 Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2007 |
And as for this: 'why are dysons called dysons? and not floors cleaners. why is nike called nike? and not sports clothing and shoes. why are Ferrari and Lamborghini not called fast car manufacturers.' I thought i could ignore but can't. : ) : ) Obviously, there are too many different manufacturers producing the same type of thing. So yes, they go on to produce a recognisable brand that they hope to sell at a premium. They would certainly struggle all with the same name. Just like British CarriageDriving is pushing too closely towards BDS. Out of interest, do many riding enthusiasts know what BDS stands for?? | ||
| Lorraine Davies Member Username: Leakys1 Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2007 |
Question for Mike form your last post: Why is British Eventing called British Eventing not British Riding then?? Eventing is a recognised ridden sport. Hardly a good argument......... British Carriage Eventing would be better than British CarriageDriving. But I still cannot see the justification for a re-brand to something more unrecognisable to the actual sport we do. | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2008 |
The name of our sport, does not have to 'do what it says on the tin', the name needs to be easy to remember. how many people outside the sport have heard of BHDTA, and how many would be able to identify what each letter stands for. What point is there having a name that may explain that we do horse driving trials if nobody knows what each letter means. We currently don't have a recognisable brand, so what harm is there in trying to create one. if it helps to makes are sport more commonly known. A name or brand is not meant to be a full explanation of the sport, but something that people will remember. NO, changing the name wont instantly get more people into the sport, but if more people know of the sport and remember the name then when they are thinking what else can they do with their horse, they may just think of driving. if a name that fully describe the sport/product is the best way to name a product then why don't large companies do the same? why are dysons called dysons? and not floors cleaners. why is nike called nike? and not sports clothing and shoes. why are Ferrari and Lamborghini not called fast car manufacturers. and WHY IS BRITISH EVENTING NOT CALLED BRITISH HORSE RIDING TRIALS? | ||
| Duncan Seth-Smith Member Username: Sakofox Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007 |
I have read the latest posts and I'm sorry James but you seem to have missed the point everyone is making.Carriage Driving is seen by the majority of people as Private driving or pleasure driving or more importantly the BDS. Driving trials is known by equestrian lovers as competitive carriage driving, I admit that the motor sport followers know driving trials as competitive car driving tests. It is all down to presenting what you do in your name. The BHDTA are not known for training novices or newcomers, in fact local area clubs like Poachers HC [lincolnshire] have always been seen as a stepping stone to the BHDTA. People have not got the money to buy a competitive horse and trials carriage from the start, on the off chance that they will like the sport,so the BHDTA is not the main choice when starting carriage driving. Your comment 'In addition in my experience, members of the BDS tend to refer to our sport as "FEI" anyway, not driving trials.' where did you get that idea from? I have never used the initials when talking carriage driving trials. Only people interested in competitive equestrian sports would have seen or heard of FEI let alone know what it stands for, I've never heard of people talking about FEI competitor Boyd Excell, but I have heard people talk about Driving Trails World Champion Boyd Excell. The change of name may be seen as a way of gaining interest from new comers but how will the BHDTA complete the basic training of traditional driving, road driving tests etc I urge you to listen to your members and give them all the full information and a vote.If you still want to rebrand, and you have had a marketing manager in the past, the name needs to reflect what the BHDTA do and that is competitive horse driving trials. | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 49 Registered: 03-2007 |
This is a great way to express ones views HOWEVER, for those who are unable to attend the AGM/conference would it not be advisable to put a link on the website along with a full explanation and proposed logos so members can make an informed decision and use their proxy vote wisely. I feel it would be unfair to expect people to vote on such a change without all the facts being clearly laid out and, I don’t think the members (those who can’t attend but wish to vote) should be expected to do so. In order to avoid a clash of dates next year, could we announce the 2013 date at this AGM. | ||
| Lorraine Davies Member Username: Leakys1 Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2007 |
James, my point exactly about outsiders being 'clueless' as to what we do but, re-branding to British CarriageDriving gives people even LESS idea. How does it make us more visible?? Why will they instantly know what we are?? At least trials or eventing gives a clue to something more than plain old sitting on a carriage with a horse up front. Spend money promoting the sport via other equestrian channels by all means, but that still doesn't explain the necessity for a name change that is less explanatory than what we have now...........??????........ | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2010 |
Sorry Geoff. I only meant to explain that there wouldn't be a problem with our BEF membership if the name change did go through, as queried by the previous post. | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2007 |
James, the BEF's comments are not as clear cut as your message seems to infer. The BEF said, and I quote, " BEF board met on the 24th October 2012 and while recognising that it has no direct responsibility in the area was pleased to welcome your name change suggestion to British Carriage Driving SUBJECT TO THE SUPPORT AND AGREEMENT OF YOUR MEMBERS" | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2010 |
We have the full support of the BEF in changing the name, so there's no problem there. The term "Driving Trials" is actually only used in this country. In America, it's Combined Driving and as far as I am aware, no other Country uses this name. The FEI use the name "driving" to describe our sport. In addition in my experience, members of the BDS tend to refer to our sport as "FEI" anyway, not driving trials. The purpose of the rebranding is to become more visible to people OUTSIDE of our sport, in the hope that we can attract some of them to our sport. Many of our members have competed in equestrian pursuits before becoming involved in our sport so that would seem a good place to promote ourselves. At least when we promote "British Carriagedriving" they will know what we are. As "Driving Trials" they are generally clueless. Once they realise that "Carriagedriving" is a modern, competitive and growing sport, there seems much more chance that they will want to be involved. | ||
| Janet Williams Member Username: Janetw Post Number: 9 Registered: 08-2010 |
If you become British Carriage driving you will be seen by other's as part of the British Driving Society and also as changing the name this will mean a complete change to constitution and also as you are no longer in your name promoting driving trials BEF may look at your membership as well as Sport England. I think stay with BHDTA and work closly with the BDS who can learn people to drive quietly and then move on to club level of driving trials at least they will know how to drive and harness up. | ||
| Lorraine Davies Member Username: Leakys1 Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2007 |
Except expense, what is to gain from re-branding?? British Carriage Driving does not give any insight into what we do at all. At least driving trials is an accurate, obvious name. Why is so much energy being wasted on this complete waste of time, effort and money. Madness. | ||
| MARTIN PINK Member Username: Dalespilot Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2010 |
I have a very good book by Amanda Saville titled "SPORTS DRIVING" does this not sum up what Driving Trials is about? Or perhaps SPORTS CARRIAGE DRIVING or even EQUESTRIAN SPORTS DRIVING. | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 69 Registered: 03-2008 |
I really don't envy you James. You're in the position of being "damned if you do and damned if you don't". I wasn't blaming you for clashing with our Indoor comp, like you say, it's bound to happen whichever weekend you pick. I'm just gutted that I can't come to the AGM, it sounds like it's going to be a fantastic night! Full credit to all concerned for coming up with the idea. My only request would be, is there any chance you would be able to find out what date it might be on next year so we can all adjust our diaries accordingly? Thanks for all you are doing for our sport by the way! | ||
| Louise McCutcheon Member Username: Louisemcc Post Number: 29 Registered: 03-2007 |
I'm sorry James, I can't let that one slide. The organisers of the Scottish Dinner Dance were equally unable to change their date, as the event is organised in conjunction with BDS Scotland and the venue had been booked more than eighteen months in advance. This was clearly explained at the Spring Council Meeting, but I was outvoted. To blame the organisers of the Scottish Dinner Dance is unfair, and not worthy of you. Scottish members may only take up 8% of the BHDTA membership total, but they will be organising over 40% of the National events next year. Perhaps a little more consideration of their views would be in order. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2010 |
Whilst I'm on my soap box, I would like to explain why our AGM is clashing with the Scottish Dinner Dance and several indoor events. As the AGM and Dinner Dance in the previous format was becoming less popular each year, it was felt that we needed a change. Of course, whatever we did had to be cost effective. We had the idea of a Horse 4s Challenge as the evening entertainment rather than a singer or a disco as this would appeal to EVERYONE. Of course, this meant that we had to look for a new venue. Addington Manor Equestrian Centre was approached and offered the BHDTA a fantastic deal which included the use of their venue for the Horse 4s event, and also rooms of adequate size for the conference and AGM. To keep costs down, it had to be run alongside Addington's Premier show jumping show, and also had to be on the last day of it. Therefore, the only date that the offer of the facilities was made available was November 17th. This date was discussed in the Spring Council Meeting and it was suggested that we ask the Scottish Dinner Dance organisers to move their date (we were not able to move ours). They duly declined, which was unfortunate, but we thought that as there was no other financially viable option for a venue, we would have to run on this date. As far as clashing with indoor events is concerned, whatever weekend is chosen between October and Christmas is bound to clash with something. I hope that this explains the situation, but if you have any other queries, please mention it on here, or contact me directly, and I will do my best to explain the situation for you. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2010 |
The BHDTA purchased these domain names so that, in the event that the proposed name change is adopted, we would have the domains. It was felt, and has become evident, that if we hadn't purchased them announcing the new name, they may not have been available after the vote. The web administrator, once the domains had been registered, put an "auto-forward" on the pages, which means that when you type those domains into your browser, you get redirected to the existing BHDTA webpage. This auto-forward has now been removed. | ||
| Paul Phillips Member Username: Paulcarriage Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2007 |
This morning Geoff Kays links www.britishcarriagedriving.co.uk or www.britishcarriagedriving.com went to www horsedrivingtrials.co.uk and the other http://www.britishcarriagedriving.org/ went to the BDS website. Now the one.co.uk and the one .com go nowhere. Why are they called that and why do they go to the BHDTA website before it has been voted on. | ||
| Patti Atkinson Member Username: Pattia Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2007 |
Good question Jane - especially as there are some 'Death Dated' bits on the other one! I have sent an email to Vic | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 34 Registered: 06-2007 |
Have I slipped into a parallel universe? Why does this website have a different front page? | ||
| Maxine Ingham Member Username: Harvey Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2008 |
As you say Geoff, interesting .. | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 8 Registered: 04-2007 |
Sorry I missed one, www.britishcarriagedriving.org is also interesting | ||
| Geoff Kay Member Username: Casper Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2007 |
Has anyone ever entered www.britishcarriagedriving.co.uk or www.britishcarriagedriving.com Interesting. | ||
| Heather Clark Member Username: Clarky Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2008 |
If Barry Hearn got involved in our sport, we'd be laughing - what a coup that'd be! | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 20 Registered: 04-2008 |
Have a listen to this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01ngnwq Interesting radio programme on sports marketing presented by Evan Davis. One of the guests - Barry Hearn - managed to get an annual six hour fishing tournament televised. | ||
| Clare Iveagh Member Username: Clarei Post Number: 10 Registered: 08-2007 |
I think there is something to be said for giving the BHDTA a face lift. IMHO though it is less about a name but more about a culture. For some reason the other day I wanted to find something out about BE, so I went to their website http://www.britisheventing.com/ The differences between their website and ours are quite evident on the very first page. In particular that there is a "membership" button claiming that you can save up to £500 a year! There are "stewards and volunteers" and "Getting started" buttons.. I realise that we do have this information on our page but it doesn't scream it... I particularly like the way they have a button people can click if they are interested in being stewards and that they will keep those interested informed of ways they can help. One click is much easier for people who want to help us than asking them to trawl through the information to find someone who is running a show they might be able to come to and then send an email blah blah blah? Membership benefits include saving up to £300 a year on groceries! It also has a button for "indoor eventing" . The site easily provides an interested party with information about how to get involved and many reasons why you should. I'm not sure how practical this would be for the BHDTA or whatever it may call itself in the future but it is worth looking at our public face and how we can make ourselves more appealing, as well as offering opportunities to start a dialogue with businesses. Maybe it would also help if indoor driving and outdoor driving were more linked on the web? I don't understand if there is a relationship between the two? Do we need to pay two sets of membership fees? Are club events really just affiliated BHDTA events? Again should we pay separate membership fees? I'm not asking these questions with any particular axe to grind other than would we not be stronger as a large collective group? Would it be cheaper to run all events out of one office? Would it be better if all events were seen as BHDTA events and you progress from one to two to three day events should that be what you wish to do? Would it create less of a psychological barrier between club and National and therefore encourage people to make the progression? In essence I think there is a lot more to rebranding than just the name. A lot has been done to raise the profile of the sport and if we can afford it we should back up this initiative with a better interface for those new to the sport, a better deal for those who are already members, a general rethink of how it works and yes a new look logo ( the current one says nothing about our sport) and an easier to remember name... | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2007 |
We change the name, logo, then what! How will this make getting sponsors easier? What exactly about our title BHDTA put any potential sponsors off that they wouldn't sponsor us, Anybody asked potential sponsors? If we must then BHDT describes our sport exactly as it is. | ||
| Heather Clark Member Username: Clarky Post Number: 20 Registered: 08-2008 |
I'm not sure people outside the sport would understand what Combined Carriage Driving is, whereas I think Horse Driving Trials is more obvious. British Driving Trials is not a bad shout although there's no mention of the linchpin of our sport - the horse! And as has been mentioned, people might think we're car folk. Playing around with variations of other ideas what about British Horse-driving Trials (BHT)although the abbreviation is three letters not two, nor have I merged words to get horsedriving as in carriagedriving which is grammatically incorrect! Interestingly the Americans use the term Combined Driving, but there's also a club out there called the North Texas Whip, mmm! Combined Driving is also used on Wikipedia as the sport's definition. I wouldn't like to think that BC is going to be delivered as a 'fait accompli' at the AGM but I do think it important for our sport not to slip down the list of also-rans/unknowns in competition terms although the popularity at grass-roots level is rising. Generally, human beings don't 'do' change very well but this sport needs to move forwards before we lose all sponsors and compared to other sports we barely have any sponsors to lose! Plus, you can't knock James Broome for sticking his head over the parapet and trying! | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 67 Registered: 03-2008 |
I think it's unfair that such an important issue is only debateable at the AGM which, as Janet points out, clashes with so many other things. The Indoor Event that I organize had to be booked 12 months ago in order to guarantee the venue. Many BHDTA members are also IHDT members and will want to try and qualify for Keysoe. Why has it suddenly been thrown at us that "BC" is the only option? Would it not have been better to have a Postal Vote with various options? The option with the most votes winning. Much fairer. | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2007 |
"I’ll keep my eye on this forum although the only debate that will really count will be at the AGM. If you have a strong opinion, please come to the AGM to share it." Given that the AGM clashes with the SCDA annual dinner dance and conference AND Paard & Koets there might not be much debate at all. | ||
| David Taylor Member Username: Davidt Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2007 |
As Duncan and Paul say BHDTA says it all - if you want to modernise but keep the meaning then drop Association as that is superfluous; just British Horse Driving Trials(BHDT). If it must be totally changed then it must describe and excite or interest so British Sport Horse Driving. My vote is I think for the former. | ||
| Rita Bundock Member Username: Roanmare Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2007 |
It is strange the way times go round in circles. The mini skirt has done it, so have the skin tight trousers/jeans and many other things have done the round trip so why not let our sport keep up with the times and complete the circle. I was not involved in carriage driving when HRH and his committee first thought up the rules for driving trials way back in the 60/70's but somewhere in the past wasn't it called Combined Driving? So how about British Combined Carriage Driving, that at least says what the sport actually is. | ||
| Duncan Seth-Smith Member Username: Sakofox Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2007 |
If you want to re-brand you have to identify a Unique Selling Point and yours is competitive carriage driving trials. Carriage Driving alone is not unique enough to identify your sport. You are trying to re-brand to get onto the Olympic equestrian stage but competitive carriage driving trials is not an Olympic event [yet?] The other side of re-branding BHDTA to British Carriage Driving is that the sport bears no resemblance to traditional carriage driving of the 1900s, but it suggests that is what you do,we know there is no way that carriage driving trials will be done with original vehicles and driven in a coachman style as in Private Driving classes for example - the sport has moved on from that a long time ago. The BDS cater for that side of the 'sport' by encouraging that the traditional forms of carriage driving are maintained which is a long way from competitive driving trials. There are suggestions on the forum that the name British Driving Trials is more appropriate but an even better name would be The British Horse Driving Trials Association which sells your USP - It does what it says on the Can | ||
| Paul Phillips Member Username: Paulcarriage Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2007 |
James Broomes last paragraph is absolutely correct. So why not avoid confusion and expense and call it the "British Horse Driving Trials Association" a name respected worldwide. Political parties, various companies have over the years changed their names and it led to confusion. Leave well alone please. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2010 |
Douglas - Thank you for your thoughts. I didn't want to be the only person in history to bring something up at an AGM without a contribution from you! In a forum-friendly form, the rationale for change is to attract more people to the sport and ultimately more paying members. This is, as far as I can see, our biggest weakness. The baby-boomers that use to ride are starting to retire, and they are the people that we need to become carriage drivers. At the moment, carriage driving (in whatever form), is not considered as a viable option for people that ride. The "feel" of our sport is perceived to be too far from their existing equestrian discipline. In reality, we are much closer than they think. I believe that if we position ourselves closer to the Olympic disciplines our sport will be far more likely to be considered as a second career for many riders that are looking to retire. How many people in our sport have had a past in a ridden sport? Maybe not all, but many. And how many of those members stumbled across our sport almost by accident? Changing the name and logo will not, in isolation, increase membership. However, it will be one of the first steps towards achieving that goal. The Google results from a search of "BC" is 100,000 less than when you search for "BD", and they are doing OK. Therefore, I don't foresee that as a problem. We wouldn't trade as BC; it would only be how people within the sport refer to the organisation. The only issue with British Driving Trials is that it could sound more like an automotive sport to the non-equestrian. Dressage, Showjumping and Eventing are all equestrian terms. Driving Trials is not an equestrian term in itself. | ||
| Kathleen Upsall Member Username: Katastrophy Post Number: 69 Registered: 10-2008 |
Would BC be the first step in merging with the BDS?? Would that be a bad thing really??! ;) Sorry- just thinking, would it be cheaper/easier/more economical to have a main body of driving the same way as dressage/SJ for example? As a small number of people on the whole we could share clinics/venues etc... Just a thought... I'm expecting to have to don my tin hat at this point!! | ||
| Douglas Strachan Member Username: Douglass Post Number: 6 Registered: 06-2007 |
I question James's statement "the rationale behind the the idea is quite complex, far too complex to convey on a forum" How, on earth, are those members who can not attend the AGM supposed to cast their Proxy Vote without knowledge of the facts. Let's get real, there are much more fundamental issues to resolve than dreaming of Olympian disciplines. If we must absolutely change, then I agree with Julie Hoskyns, and would vote for British Driving Trials. (If you Google BC , there are 1,600,000,000 links!!!!!) | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 19 Registered: 04-2008 |
Thanks for explaining a few more things and your work on this, James. | ||
| Jane Wilson Member Username: Janewil Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2007 |
Two things would concern me about a possible change of name and identity. Firstly, "BC" or British CarriageDriving I think is too inclusive. Makes it sound like all forms of driving would come under our umbrella - pleasure driving, show driving, long distance driving - and I think people could be forgiven for assuming that we had amalgamated with the BDS! If we have a name change, I think that name should 'do what it says on the tin' but you're never going to get a two letter acronym out of that. Secondly, I remain to be convinced that the cost of a change (all that paperwork and merchandising) would be a financially justifiable expense in the current economic climate. I think we already have a strong identity - can what ails the BHDTA be cured by a change of name or image? Probably not. Of course, we can all whinge as much as we like on the forum. Unless as members we undertake to attend the AGM we have no real voice. | ||
| James Broome Member Username: Jamesbroome Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2010 |
Great to see some member's thoughts on the proposed changes! The concept of changing the name and logo has been considered for the past 12 months, and the rationale behind the idea is quite complex - far too complex to convey on a forum. It's looking at where we want to position ourselves as a sport alongside the other successful Olympic disciplines. As Mike points out, I will do my best to explain all of the reasons for change, and also why we chose British Carriagedriving BC at the AGM. Just for the record though, showjumping was always two words until a few years ago - BSJA remember! As far as the cost is concerned, as our structure is very different from a typical company, the cost to change our name and logo will not be as financially high as you would probably anticipate. The main cost will be in the time and effort of volunteers. With this in mind, I would urge you to consider the proposed name without the concern of cost. I would also urge you to consider the brand of our sport OUTSIDE of our sport. The proposed changes are aimed at trying to increase our presence in the wider equestrian industry. Therefore please consider the depth of the reasoning behind the change, rather than whether you "like" the name. I’ll keep my eye on this forum although the only debate that will really count will be at the AGM. If you have a strong opinion, please come to the AGM to share it. | ||
| Christopher Priestley Member Username: Chrispriestley Post Number: 18 Registered: 04-2008 |
I agree with Mike: It has to be specific to our sport, but it also has to be catchy. How about "British Driving" or even "British Driving Trials" ? It also matches what other equestrian sports have done. i.e. British Eventing, British Dressage, British Showjumping. They do just fine with the prefix of British before the name of their sport, and don't bother with words like association or horse. But is it worth the cost at this stage? | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2008 |
Would changing to "British Carriage Driving" not be like British Eventing changing to "British Horse Riding"? | ||
| Mike Hodgson Member Username: Mikehodgson Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2008 |
why is everyone being so negative about this? James Broome is going to explain the re-branding at the agm, until then nobody has any idea of how much it will cost or the reasoning for this. so lets just wait and see what they say, before everybody starts criticising. finally some positive actions and all people do is moan? | ||
| Jackie Herd Member Username: Mackie Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2008 |
Even better! | ||
| Julie Hoskyns Member Username: Julieh Post Number: 46 Registered: 03-2007 |
Or ....BDT ( British Driving Trials ) | ||
| Jackie Herd Member Username: Mackie Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2008 |
If it has to be changed what is wrong with HDT, Horse Driving Trials, it says exactly what it is. BC isn't even short for British Carriage Driving unless Carriage Driving has suddenly become one word! | ||
| Marilyn Harding Member Username: Geronimo Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2007 |
B C ! I don't believe it! What ridicule will that bring imagine 2013 BC !! I can't think of any sponsor wanting to be associated with that!! Leave it BHDTA changing the name and Logo won't improve anything, until the council listen and take note of its members and do what t he members want instead of the usual railroading nothing will improve. Those of us who remember the Rollaston Event really enjoyed and enthused over the weekend wanting it again the following year, but council instead of embracing the event refused to allow it again hay ho! Changing reins, the Calgary stampeed, on again last night! What better advertising for our sport but hey ho again Council refused to allow the Canadian drivers compete as they hadn't qualified! How short sighted was that.! | ||
| Janet Pilling Member Username: Janetp Post Number: 76 Registered: 03-2007 |
Can't be just BD (British Driving) as that would be the same as British Dressage. I'm not wild about British Carriage Driving but it's the best option I think. I'm just worried whether it's all an un-necessary expense just now - re-branding is a VERY expensive exercise and it can be a bad move. Look at World Horse Welfare and British Horse Society - both very unpopular changes and many people still call WHW the ILPH (which was always well thought of). I agree there are probably bigger issues we should be addressing just now. | ||
| Ruth Skinner Member Username: Bhdta1 Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2007 |
RDA conducted a survey re name change and decided to leave it the same - would cost a fortune to re-brand. The Press kindly did an article for our Group stating that the Driving Group was looking for new volunteers and potential helpers offered lifts in their cars - important that HORSE or Carriage Driving be included in the name ! | ||
| Lyn Price Member Username: Lyn_price Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2011 |
I feel the alignment with the other equestrian disciplines is very important plus we should be looking a little more globally in our approach to Carriage Driving in general. We have a fantastic opportunity to embrace and encourage from grass roots drivers for example from the back to sport programme who have not yet necessarily considered nor are ready for the full horse driving trials programme. The semantic change I think shows a widening of inclusion and is therefore good. | ||
| Mike Brown Member Username: Mikebrown Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2008 |
I peronally think that rebranding (which let's face it isn't going to come cheap) is a waste of time and resources and will do little to solve the problems we have atracting and retaining active members... A re-brand to "British Carriage Driving" would confuse things, if we really do need to change things I think "British Driving Trials" would be better as it's what we do - the BDS does "carriage driving". | ||
| Joe Hodgson Member Username: Joehodgson Post Number: 164 Registered: 07-2010 |
I think it should be left alone (british carriage driving) does not discribe our sport that well. So Will it be BCDTA instead of BHDTA . British horse driving trials accociation Or British carriage driving trials accociation Or something else | ||
| Carole Redgrave Member Username: Caroleredgrave Post Number: 66 Registered: 03-2008 |
So, what are people's thoughts on the proposed name change? I can't decide. I've always thought "BHDTA" was far too much of a mouthful. Somehow though, "British Carriage Driving" sounds far too " Dressage-ified" to me which takes us straight back to a previous post " Dumbing down of the marathon"!!!! Having said that, I can't come up with anything better! |